MM Torque Arm and PHB Questions

CCobraW

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I'm thinking I'm getting ready to pull the trigger and get the MM set up put on the ride along with a set of new LCA's and some lowering springs. Does anybody else have this set-up and what do you think about it?
 

whiplash473

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been thinking about a mm torque arm and panhard bar myself but i might just irs swap it......lookin forward to seeing what this thread turns up
 

Slykin

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I just got a PHB, but I haven't installed it yet. From what I've read the PHB and TA combo is pretty sick. I think a fully built IRS will outrun that setup, but is a lot more expensive and complicated...
 

CC'S95GT

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I just got a PHB, but I haven't installed it yet. From what I've read the PHB and TA combo is pretty sick. I think a fully built IRS will outrun that setup, but is a lot more expensive and complicated...

well get off the computer and go put it in dammit. We gots ta know.
 

RichV

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I really don't want to sound like a douche, but why even go there on a street car?

Why not just get some good control arms, bushings, maybe upgrade to coilovers, get some good tires and bam, you have a handling machine.

That said, the PHB was a little bit of a pita to install. Mostly measuring/drilling, and repeating everything so you are as accurate as possible. How different does it feel? I couldn't drift the car the 1st time I drove it with the PHB. I still had a rear swaybar, which I found works best on slow tracks (30-50ish mph turns), faster tracks like the rear sway bar. I tried a PM3L where I had softened up the passenger upper control arm, but I found it just adds stress to the driver upper and prematurely wears it out. With the TA you should be able to remove the uppers and get much better articulation, I'll let you guys know when I upgrade that. I think these kind of upgrades are really geared to the open track and street use is not really practical or necessary.

You also gotta remeber my car is extremely stiff with a 6 point cage, halo, downtubes, x-bars, etc. So your car may act different, but on the street there is no way to really drive at the limit to get the use out this stuff.
 

Slykin

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I somewhat disagree. No, you may not be able to play at the limits with this stuff, but just the FEEL of the back end swaying around drives me crazy. If there wasn't a way to stop that feel, i'd sell my mustang in a heartbeat. There's a reason why people DD much higher performance cars than ours... they're still fun on the street. But, then again, I don't understand why people want cars just for tracking...

To everyone else telling me to install it, I will when I get the chance. I got it right before I replaced my clutch and did some transmission work, so the car's been torn apart without being properly leveled. After I finished that up I had to work out of town.. hopefully i'll get it in this week and report the findings. If I can get the rear end to stop swaying, I will be one happy man.
 

RichV

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If your back end is wiggling around, you have a problem with something. That's not normal behaviour, even for this 78 Fairmont chassis.

I guess I can see DD a Stang, I haven't done that since HS. I've driven trucks for work vehicles. But my SVO handles pretty well with shocks and springs when I drive it occasionaly, I enjoy pushing it on the streets/roads. But I don't feel the need to drasticaly change the design because in the end it is not for any purpose. Maybe that's why I have a race car, to justify my mods??
 

Mustanger

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I like to know the car is capable of MORE than I will ever put it through most likely...or that if by chance I get into a situation I have the max capability to get out of it! Plus someday I want to go to a track & run it once...would be fun to have this old man surprise a few people.

I already was able to avoid a freeway collision at speed a couple years ago... I was able to swerve instantly, then swerve back immediately to make the sharp curve and not exit the freeway where there was no exit. My car just responded instantly, remained very stable & in control & made me look like a real race driver! LOl...the car I made room for said he had never seen anything like it before & that he was helpless to avoid our colliding ...he was already bracing & praying but nothing happened.

I too want to limit my rear axles moving sideways under hard cornering had decided on the MM panhard & TA too but now looking to get the Whiteline Watts link setup when they make it for my SN95...
 

Slykin

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If your back end is wiggling around, you have a problem with something. That's not normal behaviour, even for this 78 Fairmont chassis.

I guess I can see DD a Stang, I haven't done that since HS. I've driven trucks for work vehicles. But my SVO handles pretty well with shocks and springs when I drive it occasionaly, I enjoy pushing it on the streets/roads. But I don't feel the need to drasticaly change the design because in the end it is not for any purpose. Maybe that's why I have a race car, to justify my mods??

I'm talking about the lateral movement of the body in relation to the axle in corners... there's a reason why PHB's are considered the part that Ford forgot. It is normal behavior for our cars... The UCA's do a sucky job of centering our axle, hence the reason for getting a PHB.

As far as whether or not to mod a DD, that's purely up to the driver. Personally, I never want my car to become a track-only car, but I still want it to handle like a race car. But, then again, i'm a bit weird.. i'm running 400# coil-overs in the front while DD'ing the car in the city. I just enjoy driving a well sorted car, no matter what circumstance. If you're cool with just tracking your car, go for it. Personally, i'm going to mod mine until there's nothing Ford left LOL. I justify my mods by saying that I have to drive the car every day anyways, so I might as well make it good
 

poisonbl

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I love the "on the street there is no way to really drive at the limit to get the use out this stuff" statement... because 90% of the time it holds true, but... I do a fair bit of my driving in rural West Virginia... mountains and curves. Lots of mountains and curves... and I have to say, the first time I took mine down through to Lewisburg area, I 1) felt the tail wagging, and 2) absolutely fell in love with the fact that, while I felt the chassis shift (absolutely no suspension work yet, and pretty sure my shocks/struts are toasted), the wheels were planted firm. While I was down there 'working' (aka, free-for-me 3 day stay at the Greenbrier), I did my first bit of reading on the suspension and decided I'd look into the PHB+TA setup as well... so here I am rambling while all I should be doing is subscribing.

My biggest concern on the change isn't cost, it's actually potential interference with the exhaust that I worry about, since it'll be interesting to get an inspection here even if I do side pipes-- they'd technically still be below operable windows. Still mad that inspections here cost me the turn downs I had when I got it (despite how obnoxiously loud they were).
 

RichV

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Ya, 90% is probably true. Back before I got into Open Track driving on the street it was mainly some highway racing, cruises with the club, and a few canyon runs (which thinking back were uber stupid, glad we didn't kill someone). Everything else is driving to 7-11, running errands, etc. So you have very little opportunity to see how your car responds at the limit. And like Mustanger stated, an emergency maneuver gives you no time or concentration to take note.

Don't kid yourself tho, you need to have experience in knowing why you're modding stuff. And that's where the driving at the limit is crucial. If you don't know what is lacking, you don't know where to put the $. I know the Internet has all sorts of info on where this suspension design is lacking, and most of that has been track proven. But that does not mean everyone needs that.

Going fast and carving corners is the coolest feeling in the world. And you know 100% when you're in the groove, you run a turn so fast your ass cheeks pucker because you're a split second from dodging prairie dogs at 90mph if you loose it. You have to have 100% trust in your car that you can commit to that turn. But I get that rush from the track, I won't even attempt it on the street. I guess that's kinds why I feel the way I do, the stock suspension has more than enough grip for everyday driving.
 

Mustanger

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But WHEN the time comes on the street isn't it nice to know you have an extra margin of safety & capability? And there are places where it is safe to push it a little...we all do it I think.
 

poisonbl

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But WHEN the time comes on the street isn't it nice to know you have an extra margin of safety & capability? And there are places where it is safe to push it a little...we all do it I think.

Well, I was probably overshooting a lot on my "90%" (and almost expected to be called out on it, actually) that probably lands more around "99%" time-wise, and "95%" miles-wise that it'll never come close to being used in my case, but the real trouble is, a road-course built suspension, while it'll turn on a dime at ridiculous speeds, generally does transfer more road noise to the interior, as well as tending to be a bit of a stiffer ride, rather than the nice, gentle, soft BMW or Benz floating along. It really all boils down to what point strikes the balance that pleases a particular driver, in their particular case. Note, I'm almost arguing against my own position above, though the 'balance' that would suit me doesn't depend on a 'gentle' ride by any measure.

Don't kid yourself tho, you need to have experience in knowing why you're modding stuff. And that's where the driving at the limit is crucial. If you don't know what is lacking, you don't know where to put the $. I know the Internet has all sorts of info on where this suspension design is lacking, and most of that has been track proven. But that does not mean everyone needs that.

That's what's held me back even more than the $ on it, simply not knowing with certainty that it'll have the specific benefits I want to see. In the end, I think I'd actually have to sit down in the car with someone who knows more (a lot more, and that wouldn't really take all that much) about suspensions than I do and demonstrate the points at which I 'feel' issues, address whatever they point to as the cause (which is very probably myself in most situations, not the car).

Going fast and carving corners is the coolest feeling in the world. And you know 100% when you're in the groove, you run a turn so fast your ass cheeks pucker because you're a split second from dodging prairie dogs at 90mph if you loose it. You have to have 100% trust in your car that you can commit to that turn. But I get that rush from the track, I won't even attempt it on the street. I guess that's kinds why I feel the way I do, the stock suspension has more than enough grip for everyday driving.

I just take a more broad view of 'everyday driving' that involves, I suspect, somewhere about halfway (assuming a lot more of myself than I should) between normal everyday and your canyon runs from years past. There's not just a pucker effect, there's also a hollow stomach drop if I'm silly enough to take that brief instant on the way into the curve to ask myself if I really do think it'll hold on the way through and out the other side. I also cannot imagine my car making it close to 90mph through any of the fun curves in the mountains out here, at least without assuming that to be the last curve she and I will ever see. I've yet to see, aside from wet roads, the limits of the car as she is in any curve I've come to, but I also still don't trust the car enough to risk pushing her up to that limit, since I still expect something other than simply traction to fail catastrophically long before I simply spin around a couple times from misjudging a curve.
 

amy98gt

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I too want to limit my rear axles moving sideways under hard cornering had decided on the MM panhard & TA too but now looking to get the Whiteline Watts link setup when they make it for my SN95...

Does anyone else make Watts link for our cars?
 

Steven

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Griggs does. Any side to side lateral movement is a failure of a control arm and or bushing to maintain geometry. Best combo for control arms and for a street car is poly upper inserts, new FRPP uppers, and J&M lowers with the polyball. I've installed and removed 3 PHB sets from MM. They are a pain to install, and I personally didn't feel enough of a difference to justify the price. I had a car with the PHB and MM lowers. Then I had the same aforementioned setup with the fresh control arm and bushing combo on tokicos and sportlines, and the stock suspension setup would run circles around it. (stock swaybars also). If you are pushing a car that hard that you truly need a PHB for lateral movement issues on the street, you shouldn't be driving that fast on a public road.
 

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