carb or injected

[99GreenStang]

But deep list they tuk my jerrrrb! LOL


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[SLOW95GTS]

to OP, I just went carb and its pretty cheap in the long run and runs basically the same except I have a manual choke and warming it up takes a little bit. If you don't know much about carbs, there's a bunch of shops who can adjust it for you. You should have money left over a good built c4 at the same time since your shooting for 500 hp. EFI is cheap when your building below the 500hp range but if you plan to go any higher its going to cost you.

 

[99GreenStang]

^ good stuff


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[cameron57]

Ive got had a carb on my last two cars. My old one went 9.0s in 1/4 my and my new goes 9.20s on a 200 shot. But im just a hillbilly. Yall giving me motivation to get my big little motor in on blow thru and make some power.

 

[cameron57]

http://csucarbs.com/6-blow-through-850.html


Clearly they are doing it wrong...

 

[96blak54]

Valve overlap.
This is when the piston nears top dead center and the intake valve opens as the exhaust valve starts its ramp shut. The exhaust vavle will stay open a few degrees after top dead center (ATDC)

Both carb and efi will run great.

Although carb cannot turn off the fuel when overlap occurs, letting fuel wash the valves, chamber, and finally going down the tubes. One benefit is cooling the chamber before being wasted down the exhaust. By why do we want to waste fuel?

Efi
(The computer asks) "When would you like me to inject"
Saving fuel, no wasing chamber, completely atomizing fuel on top of the valve instead of the complete intake runner like a carb would.

I can see the benefits of both, but I lean towards efi. Hp and emissions.

If I were to do a budget 5.0l build, probably be carbureted. ....and it would be alcohol. But since I understand efi, I'd splurge a little more for it.

 

[Addermk2]

http://csucarbs.com/6-blow-through-850.html


Clearly they are doing it wrong...

$1650 for that one carb... my entire EFI system was less than that.

Maf, injectors, rails and fuel pump.

 

[cameron57]

So your saying that you can make that kind of power with the stock system? If thats the case why does anyone run a fast or bs3? Last I checked to get my car setup for bs3 was going to be $3500 for just the box. $1650 < $3500 obviously they both work. All im saying is carbs work very well for alot of people so idk why everyone acts like there junk.

 

[mcglsr2]

I don't act like they are junk, personally. They obviously aren't, as they were used many years before EFI. They work fine. But if I were to choose, I'd choose EFI. I think EFI just works better. Carbs work. EFI works better.

A corollary to carbs being cheap and easy: if they were really "better" than EFI, and easier and cheaper, why do car makers spend the money/effort on EFI? I mean, if carbs really were better and easier and cheaper, the car makers would be using it. They'd be spending money on figuring out how to make them more fuel efficient and stuff so the Gov would stay out of their butts. However, they aren't. They are doing all that effort on EFI. Because EFI offers much more control, more performance and more reliability.

Carbs and EFI are just two different ways of solving the same problem. Yes, a carb will work. And sure, there are really high-powered cars with carbs out there. Okay. EFI works at least just as well, and I'd argue a lot better. Cost is a subjective thing. I can build a budget carb set up to go fast. I can build a budget EFI system to go just as fast. I can spend billions on either and be ludicrous fast. It just all depends.

The reality though is that EFI has replaced carbs. It's not "another option" - car makers are not offering carbs as an option on engines. EFI has *replaced* carbs. And for good reason.

Here's a short story highlighting the difference. In my dad's driveway, right this very second as you are reading this, sit two cars (among some others). They are:
1) a POS 99 Saturn SL2 that I drove for a while during grad school, with a shitty 1.9L OHC ~120 hp I4, and
2) a 1969 Dodge Dart GTS (of which they are the original owners) with a 4 barrel carb 383 big block, making a (probably conservative) 325 hp and gobs of torque

If were to ask my dad, right this very second, to go out and start both cars: the Saturn will fire right up. First try. The Dart...won't. He'll dick with the choke. Try again. More choke action. Try again. Eventually, the car will start. But that right there tells all. My dad is not lazy, but he's also not out on the Dart screwing with the jets all the time. Who wants to screw with jets all the time? When they can just turn the key on EFI and the car will start...regardless of outside temp. Regardless of outside altitude. Regardless of engine wear - or any changes to any of those things. EFI will just work. No dicking required. And not only that, you'll probably get the best performance the engine is capable of given those external conditions (and even as they change) without having to adjust anything. Can a carb do that? Me thinks not.

 

[evilcw311]

As stated before, if carb is better then why is NASCAR all runnin on efi now?!?!

A few people whined about it back in 2012 when it was started but have since changed their minds. You can find tons of interviews with the drivers and Chiefs talking about how well it's working now and how much more control they have over their power bands and how much more efficient they have bn runnin.

Drag racers.......yup, all da big dogs are fuel injected and the majority of the lower levels weekend warriors are switching to efi as well now for good reason.

As far as runnin 1000 hp on stock ECM, ask around to some of the big dogs on here and some other sites that do it with no issue. As stated before, $240ish to go with moates and to be able to make changes if you need to due to further mods to the car is pretty cheap.

If your runnin 9.0's with a carb you have a lot more than just a few hundred in your carb guaranteed. I know plenty of people who run big hp numbers wit really fast cars and the carb guys will tell you just how expensive it was to build their overall fuel system and still don't have half of the tuning capabilities that efi has. A lot of them have recently switched just because they were watching others pass them up with ease who they use to be faster than.

It's like the supercharger vs turbo debate. Everyone has an opinion and they each have their own place and purpose but no one can deny the fact that a turbo will always be more efficient at making power as no one can deny that efi isn't more efficient.


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[99GreenStang]

So your saying that you can make that kind of power with the stock system? If thats the case why does anyone run a fast or bs3? Last I checked to get my car setup for bs3 was going to be $3500 for just the box. $1650 < $3500 obviously they both work. All im saying is carbs work very well for alot of people so idk why everyone acts like there junk.

PREACH!




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[99GreenStang]

I don't act like they are junk, personally. They obviously aren't, as they were used many years before EFI. They work fine. But if I were to choose, I'd choose EFI. I think EFI just works better. Carbs work. EFI works better.

A corollary to carbs being cheap and easy: if they were really "better" than EFI, and easier and cheaper, why do car makers spend the money/effort on EFI? I mean, if carbs really were better and easier and cheaper, the car makers would be using it. They'd be spending money on figuring out how to make them more fuel efficient and stuff so the Gov would stay out of their butts. However, they aren't. They are doing all that effort on EFI. Because EFI offers much more control, more performance and more reliability.

Carbs and EFI are just two different ways of solving the same problem. Yes, a carb will work. And sure, there are really high-powered cars with carbs out there. Okay. EFI works at least just as well, and I'd argue a lot better. Cost is a subjective thing. I can build a budget carb set up to go fast. I can build a budget EFI system to go just as fast. I can spend billions on either and be ludicrous fast. It just all depends.

The reality though is that EFI has replaced carbs. It's not "another option" - car makers are not offering carbs as an option on engines. EFI has *replaced* carbs. And for good reason.

Here's a short story highlighting the difference. In my dad's driveway, right this very second as you are reading this, sit two cars (among some others). They are:
1) a POS 99 Saturn SL2 that I drove for a while during grad school, with a shitty 1.9L OHC ~120 hp I4, and
2) a 1969 Dodge Dart GTS (of which they are the original owners) with a 4 barrel carb 383 big block, making a (probably conservative) 325 hp and gobs of torque

If were to ask my dad, right this very second, to go out and start both cars: the Saturn will fire right up. First try. The Dart...won't. He'll dick with the choke. Try again. More choke action. Try again. Eventually, the car will start. But that right there tells all. My dad is not lazy, but he's also not out on the Dart screwing with the jets all the time. Who wants to screw with jets all the time? When they can just turn the key on EFI and the car will start...regardless of outside temp. Regardless of outside altitude. Regardless of engine wear - or any changes to any of those things. EFI will just work. No dicking required. And not only that, you'll probably get the best performance the engine is capable of given those external conditions (and even as they change) without having to adjust anything. Can a carb do that? Me thinks not.

Not trying to take a shot at you or your dad etc., but if you have a carb set correctly then you shouldn't have to mess with jets in order to get it to start. You also shouldn't have to adjust the choke to get it to start (I'm not saying you shouldn't have to choke it, I'm saying you shouldn't have to adjust the choke in order to get it to start).

Regardless of engine wear EFI will work? I think not on that one.

Let me ask you this when your extraordinary EFI system does fail how many of you want to pull your hair out? You bust out the multimeter start checking injectors, checking fuel pump, probably over 50% of EFI cars have a bad O2 sensor code causing the CEI to be on all the time., and you wind up replacing 200 things to try to eliminate the code because so many things are wired in together that the code could mean practically anything.

With a carb you take 4 nuts off to remove the carb and take 4 screws out on each side and remove the bowls and you can visually see everything right in front of you. Spray some carb cleaner, check the float heights, even rejet it if necessary (all with the use of the handy dandy screwdriver).

I just feel like having a carb makes it feel like you have a REAL car rather than a robot full of wires that is great no doubt until something goes wrong and it costs you a lot of money to buy parts and sensors for.

http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=450167#/forumsite/21026/topics/450167?page=2

This link here ^ will show you that a carb is cheaper to do than EFI and whoever keeps posting these carbs that are 1600 dollars and saying their EFI system is cheaper is absolutely ridiculous! You can get a 1050 dominator used for 250 and convert it to blow thru and with the use of a 1050 dominator blow thru set up it will accommodate over 1500hp as shown in the link above.

Cameron


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[cameron57]

I think the real question is which are you picking.

 

[mcglsr2]

Not trying to take a shot at you or your dad etc., but if you have a carb set correctly then you shouldn't have to mess with jets in order to get it to start. You also shouldn't have to adjust the choke to get it to start (I'm not saying you shouldn't have to choke it, I'm saying you shouldn't have to adjust the choke in order to get it to start).

Oh no worries. I'm sure if he went out and set it up, it would fire right up. Point is, he's done that before. After a while, it stops firing right up. So he fiddles. It would then start up again for a bit...and then after a while stop. Point is, as they age, they have to be fiddled with. And I don't take offense. I'm sure our carb is not set up perfect. But then, we are just normal folks. This just highlights my point even more. We are normal people. We turn the key in the EFI. It works. Why I gotta do something to the carb?

Regardless of engine wear EFI will work? I think not on that one.

In this case, you think incorrectly. As the engine wears, the amount of air it ingests changes. The MAF reads this. The computer adjusts accordingly. Hell, it even works on a Speed Density setup, to a degree. For excessive wear, okay maybe not. Point is here though that the computer is monitoring all those sensors, and based on those readings adjusts accordingly. As the engine wears, and those readings change/fluctuate, the computer compensates. The car works. Of course, there is a range of compensation. But for everyday normal cars, the computer can more than compensate. So, yes, EFI addresses engine wear.

Let me ask you this when your extraordinary EFI system does fail how many of you want to pull your hair out? You bust out the multimeter start checking injectors, checking fuel pump, probably over 50% of EFI cars have a bad O2 sensor code causing the CEI to be on all the time., and you wind up replacing 200 things to try to eliminate the code because so many things are wired in together that the code could mean practically anything.

For me, personally, it's not so dramatic. I have always had an EFI car. I go through the EFI troubleshooting steps just like I would go through the carb troubleshooting steps if it were a carb'd car. It's no different in concept, just different in steps. Sure, a computer can complicate things. But it's not magic. I have a 28 year old car running on EFI that, believe me, has had it's share of stuff go wrong. I've never pulled my hair out over it. It's always been fixed, most of the time by myself and/or my dad. It's running fine now. It's also modified and no longer running a stock tune. So sure, things can go wrong with EFI. But so can they with carbs. In the case of my dad, who let's say just finished rebuilding the carb, puts it on the car, tried to start it and the damn thing won't fire. Now what? Dismantle the carb again? It depends. Carbs are not magical either. They don't always work, and for some people can be just as hard to correct as EFI might be for others.

With a carb you take 4 nuts off to remove the carb and take 4 screws out on each side and remove the bowls and you can visually see everything right in front of you. Spray some carb cleaner, check the float heights, even rejet it if necessary (all with the use of the handy dandy screwdriver).

Sure it sounds easy. The ancilliary to this for EFI is I run some Seafoam in the gas tank, clean out the injectors, and move on with life. I can't always fix a carb by looking at it, just like I can't always fix EFI by running some Seafoam through it. It all depends on what is wrong. Nothing you have said here (combined with what I have seen with carbs) makes me believe that carbs are any easier to work on. They have their own, separate sets of problems that can be just as easy or as hard as corresponding problems with EFI. Again, if carbs were really as easy as you make it sound, car makers would use. But they don't. So it's not always as simple as you make you sound.

I just feel like having a carb makes it feel like you have a REAL car rather than a robot full of wires that is great no doubt until something goes wrong and it costs you a lot of money to buy parts and sensors for.

And that's cool, that's your thing. I won't take that from you, nor will I tell you you are wrong. Beucase that's how you feel. I respect that. For me, a real car has EFI. And that's because we are different people, from different backgrounds. It's all good. I'm not trying to say here that carbs suck. Like I said before, I'm 100% they work, because cars older than 1990. What am I saying is that EFI, due to all it's fancy computer stuff, works better in a vast majority of situations. In extreme cases, like all-out drag cars, I'm just one could make carb and EFI work equally as well. But I don't think OP was asking for that extreme of a case (if I'm wrong, I apologize). So, with a broad spectrum of uses that the OP might have for his car, EFI would be the better option due to it's flexibility. I'm not saying a carb wouldn't work for him. I'm sure he could make a carb work. But today, with EFI as available as it is, EFI would be the better option.

And it's possible we just may never agree on this, and that's okay. We don't have to agree on everything

http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=450167#/forumsite/21026/topics/450167?page=2

This link here ^ will show you that a carb is cheaper to do than EFI and whoever keeps posting these carbs that are 1600 dollars and saying their EFI system is cheaper is absolutely ridiculous! You can get a 1050 dominator used for 250 and convert it to blow thru and with the use of a 1050 dominator blow thru set up it will accommodate over 1500hp as shown in the link above.

Cameron

Certainly there is less involved with setting up a carb, which will tend to make one believe it's cheaper (initially). Okay. But again, think of all the use-cases that a car has these days, and think of MPG. So the initial cost of a carb may be lower, but all the adjusting, all the lower efficiency, or perhaps unreliability has to also be taken in account. At this point, is the carb still cheaper? Think of the total cost of ownership, as it were. How many people out there *have* to fiddle with their EFI system vs how many *have* to fiddle with their carb setup? I honestly don't know the answer to this, but I have an idea of which way it would swing... If we are talking about the extreme case of racing, then both carb and EFI people are *always* fiddling with the setup.

I'll check out that link.

 

[mcglsr2]

Here you guys go: a FAQ on Edlebrocks site regarding carbs:

http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive/misc/tech-center/carb-faq.shtml

If you look at the questions and the answers, you'll get a feel for what's involved with a carb. Now, if one re-reads those answers with EFI in mind, I think that will illuminate some stuff. Not saying EFI is perfect of course. But on questions like the fuel mileage - I have a carb calibrated for fuel mileage. If you want performance, get out your screwdrivers and re-calibrate for performance. In other words, having great fuel mileage *and* great performance are two conflicting desires here.

In EFI, while there still may be a touch of conflict, for the most part one can have both; one can have a 30 MPG car that also runs with 400 hp. It's a do-able thing. Without changing anything. Just let the computer do it's thing. On a carb, I have to swap. I have to make changes. If my car only lives in one environment (i.e. race) then it's no big deal. I set my carb once for what I want and go on. But what if I race in Florida (sea level) and then in Utah (high altitude)? Can I do that on my carb without changing anything? Because I can on my EFI.

If we say the argument is about which is cheaper, or which makes more power, then we will argue until the end of days. But if the argument is about which makes more sense in today's world, I'd be hard pressed to be convinced the answer is carb.

 

[evilcw311]

Sct 4 bank chip or moates quarter horse with a switch allows us to switch from a higher performance setting to a fuel efficient setting to a e85 setting or what ever the hell you want setting all while sitting in the car and having to turn a lil switch from 1 to 4 and no need for that handy dandy lil screw driver.......

Wow............that was tough!!!



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[99GreenStang]

Oh no worries. I'm sure if he went out and set it up, it would fire right up. Point is, he's done that before. After a while, it stops firing right up. So he fiddles. It would then start up again for a bit...and then after a while stop. Point is, as they age, they have to be fiddled with. And I don't take offense. I'm sure our carb is not set up perfect. But then, we are just normal folks. This just highlights my point even more. We are normal people. We turn the key in the EFI. It works. Why I gotta do something to the carb?



In this case, you think incorrectly. As the engine wears, the amount of air it ingests changes. The MAF reads this. The computer adjusts accordingly. Hell, it even works on a Speed Density setup, to a degree. For excessive wear, okay maybe not. Point is here though that the computer is monitoring all those sensors, and based on those readings adjusts accordingly. As the engine wears, and those readings change/fluctuate, the computer compensates. The car works. Of course, there is a range of compensation. But for everyday normal cars, the computer can more than compensate. So, yes, EFI addresses engine wear.



For me, personally, it's not so dramatic. I have always had an EFI car. I go through the EFI troubleshooting steps just like I would go through the carb troubleshooting steps if it were a carb'd car. It's no different in concept, just different in steps. Sure, a computer can complicate things. But it's not magic. I have a 28 year old car running on EFI that, believe me, has had it's share of stuff go wrong. I've never pulled my hair out over it. It's always been fixed, most of the time by myself and/or my dad. It's running fine now. It's also modified and no longer running a stock tune. So sure, things can go wrong with EFI. But so can they with carbs. In the case of my dad, who let's say just finished rebuilding the carb, puts it on the car, tried to start it and the damn thing won't fire. Now what? Dismantle the carb again? It depends. Carbs are not magical either. They don't always work, and for some people can be just as hard to correct as EFI might be for others.



Sure it sounds easy. The ancilliary to this for EFI is I run some Seafoam in the gas tank, clean out the injectors, and move on with life. I can't always fix a carb by looking at it, just like I can't always fix EFI by running some Seafoam through it. It all depends on what is wrong. Nothing you have said here (combined with what I have seen with carbs) makes me believe that carbs are any easier to work on. They have their own, separate sets of problems that can be just as easy or as hard as corresponding problems with EFI. Again, if carbs were really as easy as you make it sound, car makers would use. But they don't. So it's not always as simple as you make you sound.



And that's cool, that's your thing. I won't take that from you, nor will I tell you you are wrong. Beucase that's how you feel. I respect that. For me, a real car has EFI. And that's because we are different people, from different backgrounds. It's all good. I'm not trying to say here that carbs suck. Like I said before, I'm 100% they work, because cars older than 1990. What am I saying is that EFI, due to all it's fancy computer stuff, works better in a vast majority of situations. In extreme cases, like all-out drag cars, I'm just one could make carb and EFI work equally as well. But I don't think OP was asking for that extreme of a case (if I'm wrong, I apologize). So, with a broad spectrum of uses that the OP might have for his car, EFI would be the better option due to it's flexibility. I'm not saying a carb wouldn't work for him. I'm sure he could make a carb work. But today, with EFI as available as it is, EFI would be the better option.

And it's possible we just may never agree on this, and that's okay. We don't have to agree on everything



Certainly there is less involved with setting up a carb, which will tend to make one believe it's cheaper (initially). Okay. But again, think of all the use-cases that a car has these days, and think of MPG. So the initial cost of a carb may be lower, but all the adjusting, all the lower efficiency, or perhaps unreliability has to also be taken in account. At this point, is the carb still cheaper? Think of the total cost of ownership, as it were. How many people out there *have* to fiddle with their EFI system vs how many *have* to fiddle with their carb setup? I honestly don't know the answer to this, but I have an idea of which way it would swing... If we are talking about the extreme case of racing, then both carb and EFI people are *always* fiddling with the setup.

I'll check out that link.

I can respect you because you don't diss someone for having a different mindset or opinion than you. I like carbs because I know how to work on them and make them perform just as good as EFI if not better. You like EFI because you know how to work with it. It's just a difference of opinion just like the age old Ford vs Chevy debate.

I am not no know it all expert by no means and me and you probably learnt all of our stuff the same way out in the yard laying in the dirt watching your dad help you fix stuff or work on it.

Also I'd like to point out Eldelbrock Carbs suck!

I'm a carb guy myself as you can tell and I always will be. You can make just as much HP and cheaper with a carb as you can with EFI.

I'd like to say again that I respect the way you replied to me and I agree with what you said there's no arguing that carbs need adjustment more with weather changes than EFI but it just doesn't bother me to have to do it personally cause I enjoy it and I love a carb'd car more than a EFI car.

Cameron


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[mcglsr2]

I can respect you because you don't diss someone for having a different mindset or opinion than you. I like carbs because I know how to work on them and make them perform just as good as EFI if not better. You like EFI because you know how to work with it. It's just a difference of opinion just like the age old Ford vs Chevy debate.

I am not no know it all expert by no means and me and you probably learnt all of our stuff the same way out in the yard laying in the dirt watching your dad help you fix stuff or work on it.

Also I'd like to point out Eldelbrock Carbs suck!

I'm a carb guy myself as you can tell and I always will be. You can make just as much HP and cheaper with a carb as you can with EFI.

I'd like to say again that I respect the way you replied to me and I agree with what you said there's no arguing that carbs need adjustment more with weather changes than EFI but it just doesn't bother me to have to do it personally cause I enjoy it and I love a carb'd car more than a EFI car.

Cameron


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It's all good dude :thumbsup: I don't know anything about carbs really. However, when I eventually get my hands on the 69 Dart I will have to learn as I don't really intend on converting it to EFI. So I'll just have to get my feet wet.

And lol to the Edlebrock comment!

Yup, suspected you are a die-hard carb guy and always will be. And that's cool with me

 

[mcglsr2]

At the end of the day, it's all about what the individual wants to do. Whatever that happens to be, they will make it work. I get told by the BMW people that the SN95 is terrible platform for road racing. And I get satisfaction when I beat them. Just like 99GreenStang and cameron57 get satisfaction from beating EFI people; and addermk2 and evilcw311 get satisfaction from beating carb'd people. It all comes down to the individual, their goals, and how they choose to accomplish their goals.

 

[cameron57]

The only other point I will make on carb vs efi is if your talking about fast cars you will be making a adjustment on it regardless. Ive been to the track a lot and I always see the fast guys with fuel injection making changes for the track after each pass. We dont do that on our car Now im not running in the 7s but my car should go in the 8s once its alittle more dialed in. But we have yet to make any changes on our sv1 and it works great. Idk im just big on if its not broke dont fix it. I guess what im getting at is in extreme apps both are constantly tweeking stuff after each pass so whats the diffrence.