finally got out to the track again

Discussion in 'Members Rides' started by ba#97, Feb 9, 2014.

  1. ba#97

    ba#97 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,094
    Likes Received:
    20
    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2011
    Location:
    Sacramento, Ca
    Here's a link to just a free of the pics taken of my day at Thunderhill yesterday. Only did a few sessions before packing up and heading out again. For shaking a newly built car down it wasnt too bad of a day, it did start raining and I did get to see someone flip their spec miata sadly so....I decided it was time to pack up and leave. I couldnt get a good read on the cars handling with how cold it was though, even without the track being wet it was so cold it took a lot to get grip. Auto crossing next weekend though! So anyways...here's some pics.


    http://www.gotbluemilk.com/web140207/97/index.html


    Richv...if you check this out I do have a question for you in regards to a handling issue I noticed on this day.
     
  2. KillNThrill24

    KillNThrill24 Legend

    Messages:
    7,472
    Likes Received:
    408
    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2012
    Location:
    Cleveland Ohio
    [MENTION=17007]RichV[/MENTION] ^

    Badass pics man looks like the new car handles pretty well! It'll be interesting to see how it handles in warmer weather where traction will be easier to get. Thanks for sharing!

    Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk
     
  3. RichV

    RichV Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,227
    Likes Received:
    247
    Joined:
    May 6, 2012
    Location:
    CO
    Looks good! We're under a bunch of snow, wish I was on track with you!!

    Does your car overheat? Noticed you don't have a air deflector.
     
  4. ba#97

    ba#97 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,094
    Likes Received:
    20
    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2011
    Location:
    Sacramento, Ca

    Right now no it doesnt just cuz it was so cold out at the event, that being said ive never had overheating issues before. But I will be doing a front splitter setup soon so that should help with airflow into the radiator too dont you think? As for the question I was going to ask, this car doesnt have abs and I noticed that when under hard braking the car would become very unstable and start wallowing around on me pretty bad sometimes to where I had to back off the pedal a bit and then get back to the brakes to settle it down. And then from then on a backed up my braking points much further than I am used to. What would cause this? I couldnt tell what the issue was really (whether or not it was the fronts locking up though I think I would know if that was the case), it was very hard to read the issue with how cold it was out and the fact that the track qwas slightly damp. Only thing I could think of as too much weight transfer to the front making the back dance around??
     
  5. RichV

    RichV Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,227
    Likes Received:
    247
    Joined:
    May 6, 2012
    Location:
    CO
    When I first took my 94 out, the rear was scary. It would dance under hard braking, not sure if this is your issue. What do you have in the back for LCA/UCA, spring, shock, and bushings?

    If you do an actual splitter, you won't need this but look at my air deflector. IIRC its a '87 ranger deflector from RockAuto for $10 or so. Sides trimmed for the mustang.

    [​IMG]
     
  6. ba#97

    ba#97 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,094
    Likes Received:
    20
    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2011
    Location:
    Sacramento, Ca

    My rear end setup is straight off the cobra and I know its crap honestly...just upr upper and lower control arms, urethane bushings, mm coilovers with 275lb rear springs. I loved the way the car handled with those spring rates On koni single adjustable shocks...this is just a whole new animal....and it is doing EXACTLY what you said your car did. The rear dances a lot it seemed like. What do you recommend for a rear suspension setup?? I was seriously considering the steeda 5 link though it is pricey.
     
  7. MadStang

    MadStang Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,552
    Likes Received:
    111
    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2008
    Location:
    Escondido, Ca
    This is why. your upper control arms are flexing and binding as they are unable to articulate. They will cause the rear end to hop under hard braking...

    If you're on a budget, you can do the cheaper version of what I did. Torque arms aren't allowed in my class so I had to make due with just modifying the way the 4-link works.

    Buy an MM Panhard Bar, remove the driver side UCA, replace the passenger side UCA with a Heim Joint UCA and spherical axle bushing (both of which can be bought individually if you call steeda for $160 total). Then just so you don't rip the torque box out, buy the Wild Rides torque box reinforcement, weld it in and weld the rest of the stock box as well. I've run this setup for over a year now with no signs of fatigue and it works just as good as a torque arm (albeit I run a watts link instead of a panhard). it's also lighter, cheaper, and doesn't kill ground clearance like a TA.

    Total cost for that whole setup would be about $600-$650 and it would be fast. hell it's good enough to put me 2 seconds out front of the other cars in my class in autocross with a car nearly twice the weight of everyone else haha.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    NOTE: you must have either a Panhard bar or Watts Link to run the "3-Link" setup. otherwise there is nothing to locate the axle correctly in a lateral direction.
     
  8. ba#97

    ba#97 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,094
    Likes Received:
    20
    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2011
    Location:
    Sacramento, Ca

    This is a setup I have kind of heard of but didn't know much about so thank you for the detailed info. I am going to seriously consider this but at the same time, I'm just wondering if saving a little longer and going with the steeds one will be good too....as for the actually handling condition the car has now, its not a wheel hop at all...ive felt that trust me...haha, but this isnt that...this is more of a dancing around like the rear is moving side to side, that being said...the fix you mentioned should...fix that too. Lol. I can't heal toe right now due to how the pedals are setup so I need to fix that soon too so that I won't have to worry about that pesky wheel hop.
     
  9. MadStang

    MadStang Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,552
    Likes Received:
    111
    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2008
    Location:
    Escondido, Ca
    yup basically it's called the Poor Man's 3-Link. Steeda's set up is definitely nice, there's no doubt about that and I could have gone that route but I wanted to minimize extra weight and complexity. can't get much more basic than a watt's and 3-link haha. I refer to it as wheel hop just because it technically is the rear end hopping around due to the the forces that are being pushed into this shape / \ under braking since the axle wants to tilt on a vertical axis. Since the upper arms are doing two jobs at once and doing it poorly you're going to have adverse affects. when I eliminated one of the UCA's you wouldn't believe how much axle bind reduction i had. it was to the point that on the same spring rate I was running with the 4-link, that i was riding the bumpstop and actually clearanced my axle housing on my trunk. Eliminate the 4 link and the rear suspension is going to be a lot softer.
     
  10. ba#97

    ba#97 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,094
    Likes Received:
    20
    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2011
    Location:
    Sacramento, Ca

    Aweomse advice, I appreciate it and will definitely look into it! Question though....how come this never happened in the cobra? Do you think it was just magnified more by the adverse track conditions? Cuz in the cobra I could brake hard as hell with no sign of any of this.
     
  11. MadStang

    MadStang Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,552
    Likes Received:
    111
    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2008
    Location:
    Escondido, Ca
    my guess is worn bushings or it's possible that the torque boxes are weak enough that they are flexing, which really isn't that uncommon with the 4-link setup. it's tough to really say what it is exactly, but eliminating the 4-link will cure IMO. if it doesn't you may want to look at the brakes for any uneven wear.
     
  12. RichV

    RichV Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,227
    Likes Received:
    247
    Joined:
    May 6, 2012
    Location:
    CO
    Madstang is on the right track. His solution is for sure race car oriented, you need to make sure it is legal in whatever class you are running. My guess to the issue is bushings and LCAs are moving around.

    A PM3L is hit and miss. IMO the Tqbox is not strong enough to do this correctly. I ran the PM3L for a little while, but the weakness of this setup shows on really fast sweeping corners. You'll notice that right handers are slower than lefts, this is because the side without the UCA will slightly shift forward. This is much more severe with softer bushings, Madstang has solid bushings throughout I'm assuming, which does not allow any movement however this is really bad on your chassis. The movement has to go somewhere, and it's absorbed by the TQbox. Eventualy it will eat it up and cause big issues. I have no idea how the level of abuse compared in auto-x vs road racing on the cars, but I do know that guys have reported TQbox damage in as little as 2 seasons in NASA and that's WITH bushings.

    My solution would be a bit more simple. I would junk the UPR stuff, use some MM HD LCAs, OE UCAs, and replace your upper axle bushings with OE. The OE rubber in the uppers will allow some give, the bushings will wear. Specially with r-comp use, probably replace them every 2 seasons. At minimum just do the axle bushings and UCAs.

    Now, if you can do a TA, just dump the uppers all together. Remember if you do a PHB or Watts, the COG changes and you need to raise the rear spring rate, mine almost doubled from 280 to 415.

    That's my .02.
     
  13. ba#97

    ba#97 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,094
    Likes Received:
    20
    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2011
    Location:
    Sacramento, Ca
    I can go with the ta but I also don't really know if I like the idea of losing ground clearance. have you guys seen anyone use the steeda 5 link setup? I have heard good things about it and that is really what I am leaning towards going with at this point. that being said, if I do go with that...should I still have the tq boxes welded? and if I have to raise the rear spring rates at that point...do I need to raise the fronts too?
     
  14. MadStang

    MadStang Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,552
    Likes Received:
    111
    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2008
    Location:
    Escondido, Ca
    Was the damage with or without torque box reinforcement? because I would never recommend the PM3L without adding more metal to the torque box area. In fact I actually plan on adding a bar from my cage directly to the torque box area to reinforce it even more than I have.

    as you mentioned I have all solid bushings in the rear of the car, albeit noisy, my setup is predictable and fast which I love.
     
  15. RichV

    RichV Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,227
    Likes Received:
    247
    Joined:
    May 6, 2012
    Location:
    CO
    That's definitely ideal on the reinforcement. CMC is just now discussing to allow TQ box reinforcement, most of them allow multiple pickups which is against the rules of CMC.

    Your setup is obviously competitive, so stick with what works.
     
  16. ba#97

    ba#97 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,094
    Likes Received:
    20
    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2011
    Location:
    Sacramento, Ca

    one last question about this setup, should I just use the same UPR lower control arm setup or for it or should I go with steeda ones instead or something? also, for the tq box reinforcements, my cage is already welded in so will this hinder having that reinforcement welded in? I have to take a look at it but I think where the main hoop is welded is right there where those would be welded in on the inside of the car. I might be able to see if they can do some reinforcing of it all though.
     
  17. MadStang

    MadStang Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,552
    Likes Received:
    111
    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2008
    Location:
    Escondido, Ca
    I'm personally not a fan of upr parts so I would change to MM LCA's. I run MM XD's which are an all solid control arm (no bushings).
     
  18. MustangChris

    MustangChris Legend SN95 Supporter Retired Staff

    Messages:
    27,361
    Likes Received:
    810
    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2008
    Location:
    Aurora, CO
    bet it feels great to get back out there! :)
     
  19. ba#97

    ba#97 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,094
    Likes Received:
    20
    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2011
    Location:
    Sacramento, Ca
    I mean the car is a dedicated track car so do you think going with solid ones is the way to go? i'd have to see if there is an issue with that in the rlta rule book. hm....as for the battle box....what do you think on that situation?


    Mustangchris...yeah it does feel pretty damn good though I do have some bugs to work out. autocrossing this weekend and then out to sonoma next month!
     
  20. MadStang

    MadStang Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,552
    Likes Received:
    111
    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2008
    Location:
    Escondido, Ca
    definitely the way to go if it's allowed. better steering feel and much more predictable.

    What do you want to know about the battle boxes? definite must for the pm3l so you don't rip a box out if the car.