Losing hope

94GT363

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This has been a very stressful 7-8 year adventure. I've broken the 50k mark and still have a product that I can't drive.

I'll start at the beginning. I bought this 363 as a long block from a local performance shop that was supposed to be built for "another customer" apparently that deal went south so that's where I came in "That was probably a bad decision". So it was thrown in the car and was set up as a NA for now "low compression" fund's didn't allow me to boost it at the time. At the beginning the car pulled strong, no hesitation's... eventually that became an issue. I hadn't even broke the 1k miles mark and I had excessive blow by "decent amount's of oil getting past the breathers, also pushing up the dipstick". At this time I wasn't very knowledgeable and didn't fully understand blowby. I may have been a sucker for shit online information. I found a thread where guy's were putting less than 7 quart's of oil, no less than 6 quart's to limit the amount of oil being thrown around in the top end lol. So it got to the point where I reached out to the shop where I purchased the motor, told him everything that was happening and the stupid thing I did with the oil. Right off the bat he told me I needed a rebuild. Didn't do a compression test or leak down test, nothing said he didn't need too.

Now this is where thing's get fun and interesting. So when this motor was purchased... that shop doesn't actually build motor's, I was told something like the shortblock was purchased from the states "I'm from Canada eh lol" and rest of the part's were put together up here via this "buddy" company. I end up taking the motor to this guy to have new piston's and ring's put in along with some other miscellaneous work while motor is apart. The one day I went to see the progress and mentioned to him about having originally put this motor together... his word's were "Ive never had this motor in my possession before". And this is where I start getting upset. I had already pre purchased 30k worth of part's that were on their way "from the original shop". Fast forward months and months, everything was in the car... fresh motor, tko trans, blower, entire fuel system from tank too injectors, full maximum motorsport front end kit etc. During that process I received multiple call's saying they're having trouble tuning my car and that it won't be leaving until they figure it out. " Made me feel good at the time". Guess what, I get a call to come to the shop.. I arrive and hear the word's "We're giving up... we can't figure it out, can't spend anymore time on it". Here I'am dropping 36k with this batch of goodies to hear that. All my problem's were supposed to be solved.

So now I'm speaking to my engine builder, he recommended his tuner and he'd do it for a cheap price for the first shot to help out. Car goes there, within 30 minute's he's under the car and you'll never guess it! It was the fucking mass air sensor unplugged!!! The car was idling at the time, obviously a massive difference when plugged in lol. I thought all my prayer's were answered! I was finally gunna be able to enjoy my car! The tuner did his thing with the sniffer tool to tune, on the screen it said was running perfectly on 14.7 at idle and richened up when under load. My engine builder was also present to make sure the tuner wasn't doing any shady stuff and noticed that the pig tail for my mass air was the unreliable brand and wanted me to have the original shop replace that. I also have a innovate motorsport gauge that read's both banks for AFR, they were still reading super lean! maxing out on driver side, pass side wasn't to far behind. Tuner told me not to trust it lol. So you think this is where the story end's? Wrong! I actually drove the car home that day, I barely made it to the corner from the tuner's shop and the engine light come's on. There was just a safe tune on it for the break in period. While on the highway their was some slight jerking in 5th, figured it was just the tune. Every weekend I'd take the car out and that jerking would become 4th, 3rd and become more aggressive. Sometime during this period a had taken the car back to the original shop to have that pigtail swapped. Out of curiosity they wanted to hook the sniffer up to check the AFR, sure enough still reading super lean!!! The owner lost his mind over it. Come to find out they had heard about what happened and the sensor being unplugged via drama on fb over it.. apparently these two people have a past and myself and my car were stuck in the middle lol.

Car is back home, at this point I refused to take it anywhere else because my trust has completely been broken. I don't know who to believe, at this point I truly felt like I had be taken advantage of. So I started studying myself, also enlisted the help of a good buddy that has a similar build to me. We ended up finding 1 vacuum leak.. a very very small one where the EGR bolts up to the throttle body. Also found 3 exhausts leak's upstream from the widebands!!! 1 pin hole leak on both bung's for the wideband's and another leak on pass side where X pipe connect's to header. Luckily I have a mig on hand and fixed the issue with the bungs and used a bit of RTV for the other. At this point I'am really feeling good about it, I also did the proper procedure to reset the AFR gauge. Start the car and gauge was pretty much reading 14.7, problem was.... as car warmed up the gauge would slowly lean out near max at idle. Under load It mostly certainly wasn't getting where it should have been. Hopefully I haven't done any damage, haven't gone into boost once since the rebuild.

If you guy's have read this far, thank you very much! So after all that, based of my last paragraph about finding the leak's.. From what I've gathered, when the car was taken back for the pigtail swap and they checked the AFR, it would make sense for the super lean reading because of atleast 3 exhaust leak's?.. all they did was put in the sniffer at the tail pipe. As far as the actual tune job, with the tuner not knowing about all these leak's.... how does this effect the tune? How the fuck does his computer show 14.7 at idle and richens appropriately under load but my gauge says otherwise after fixing the leak's? Also a good thing to mention, when I place my hand at the tailpipe... the fumes are extremely hot. Comparing it to my buddies car with similar motor... its much cooler.. I'm I on to something?
I truly believe this jerking/hesitation is the same issue I had pre rebuild and may not be a tune issue.

Once again thank you to those that take the time to read this and respond! Hope everyone is doing well with quarantine lol
 

evilcw311

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This has been a very stressful 7-8 year adventure. I've broken the 50k mark and still have a product that I can't drive.

I'll start at the beginning. I bought this 363 as a long block from a local performance shop that was supposed to be built for "another customer" apparently that deal went south so that's where I came in "That was probably a bad decision". So it was thrown in the car and was set up as a NA for now "low compression" fund's didn't allow me to boost it at the time. At the beginning the car pulled strong, no hesitation's... eventually that became an issue. I hadn't even broke the 1k miles mark and I had excessive blow by "decent amount's of oil getting past the breathers, also pushing up the dipstick". At this time I wasn't very knowledgeable and didn't fully understand blowby. I may have been a sucker for shit online information. I found a thread where guy's were putting less than 7 quart's of oil, no less than 6 quart's to limit the amount of oil being thrown around in the top end lol. So it got to the point where I reached out to the shop where I purchased the motor, told him everything that was happening and the stupid thing I did with the oil. Right off the bat he told me I needed a rebuild. Didn't do a compression test or leak down test, nothing said he didn't need too.

Now this is where thing's get fun and interesting. So when this motor was purchased... that shop doesn't actually build motor's, I was told something like the shortblock was purchased from the states "I'm from Canada eh lol" and rest of the part's were put together up here via this "buddy" company. I end up taking the motor to this guy to have new piston's and ring's put in along with some other miscellaneous work while motor is apart. The one day I went to see the progress and mentioned to him about having originally put this motor together... his word's were "Ive never had this motor in my possession before". And this is where I start getting upset. I had already pre purchased 30k worth of part's that were on their way "from the original shop". Fast forward months and months, everything was in the car... fresh motor, tko trans, blower, entire fuel system from tank too injectors, full maximum motorsport front end kit etc. During that process I received multiple call's saying they're having trouble tuning my car and that it won't be leaving until they figure it out. " Made me feel good at the time". Guess what, I get a call to come to the shop.. I arrive and hear the word's "We're giving up... we can't figure it out, can't spend anymore time on it". Here I'am dropping 36k with this batch of goodies to hear that. All my problem's were supposed to be solved.

So now I'm speaking to my engine builder, he recommended his tuner and he'd do it for a cheap price for the first shot to help out. Car goes there, within 30 minute's he's under the car and you'll never guess it! It was the fucking mass air sensor unplugged!!! The car was idling at the time, obviously a massive difference when plugged in lol. I thought all my prayer's were answered! I was finally gunna be able to enjoy my car! The tuner did his thing with the sniffer tool to tune, on the screen it said was running perfectly on 14.7 at idle and richened up when under load. My engine builder was also present to make sure the tuner wasn't doing any shady stuff and noticed that the pig tail for my mass air was the unreliable brand and wanted me to have the original shop replace that. I also have a innovate motorsport gauge that read's both banks for AFR, they were still reading super lean! maxing out on driver side, pass side wasn't to far behind. Tuner told me not to trust it lol. So you think this is where the story end's? Wrong! I actually drove the car home that day, I barely made it to the corner from the tuner's shop and the engine light come's on. There was just a safe tune on it for the break in period. While on the highway their was some slight jerking in 5th, figured it was just the tune. Every weekend I'd take the car out and that jerking would become 4th, 3rd and become more aggressive. Sometime during this period a had taken the car back to the original shop to have that pigtail swapped. Out of curiosity they wanted to hook the sniffer up to check the AFR, sure enough still reading super lean!!! The owner lost his mind over it. Come to find out they had heard about what happened and the sensor being unplugged via drama on fb over it.. apparently these two people have a past and myself and my car were stuck in the middle lol.

Car is back home, at this point I refused to take it anywhere else because my trust has completely been broken. I don't know who to believe, at this point I truly felt like I had be taken advantage of. So I started studying myself, also enlisted the help of a good buddy that has a similar build to me. We ended up finding 1 vacuum leak.. a very very small one where the EGR bolts up to the throttle body. Also found 3 exhausts leak's upstream from the widebands!!! 1 pin hole leak on both bung's for the wideband's and another leak on pass side where X pipe connect's to header. Luckily I have a mig on hand and fixed the issue with the bungs and used a bit of RTV for the other. At this point I'am really feeling good about it, I also did the proper procedure to reset the AFR gauge. Start the car and gauge was pretty much reading 14.7, problem was.... as car warmed up the gauge would slowly lean out near max at idle. Under load It mostly certainly wasn't getting where it should have been. Hopefully I haven't done any damage, haven't gone into boost once since the rebuild.

If you guy's have read this far, thank you very much! So after all that, based of my last paragraph about finding the leak's.. From what I've gathered, when the car was taken back for the pigtail swap and they checked the AFR, it would make sense for the super lean reading because of atleast 3 exhaust leak's?.. all they did was put in the sniffer at the tail pipe. As far as the actual tune job, with the tuner not knowing about all these leak's.... how does this effect the tune? How the fuck does his computer show 14.7 at idle and richens appropriately under load but my gauge says otherwise after fixing the leak's? Also a good thing to mention, when I place my hand at the tailpipe... the fumes are extremely hot. Comparing it to my buddies car with similar motor... its much cooler.. I'm I on to something?
I truly believe this jerking/hesitation is the same issue I had pre rebuild and may not be a tune issue.

Once again thank you to those that take the time to read this and respond! Hope everyone is doing well with quarantine lol

Holy hell!!!! That’s some stuff right there. I’d be afraid to even start to try and guess what’s going on after so many hands in the cookie jar.

I might of missed it but what is controlling the car? Factory Ecm with a chip, stand-alone, what?!?


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94GT363

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Holy hell!!!! That’s some stuff right there. I’d be afraid to even start to try and guess what’s going on after so many hands in the cookie jar.

I might of missed it but what is controlling the car? Factory Ecm with a chip, stand-alone, what?!?


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Currently setup via SCT. Planning on going Holley in the future but this issue needs to be solved first. Even with all these leak's present during the tuning process, wouldn't the tuner think more fuel is needed? Me fixing those leaks you'd think the car would be running rich? It just doesnt make sense that the computer saying one thing but clear evidence that it wasn't true lol.

The original shop was supposed to have put in another set of injectors to test if that would fix it but during that time the mass air sensor was unplugged so it wouldnt have mattered lol Will have to check that... my buddy uses same size injectors
 

evilcw311

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Currently setup via SCT. Planning on going Holley in the future but this issue needs to be solved first. Even with all these leak's present during the tuning process, wouldn't the tuner think more fuel is needed? Me fixing those leaks you'd think the car would be running rich? It just doesnt make sense that the computer saying one thing but clear evidence that it wasn't true lol.

The original shop was supposed to have put in another set of injectors to test if that would fix it but during that time the mass air sensor was unplugged so it wouldnt have mattered lol Will have to check that... my buddy uses same size injectors

Act chips have been hit or miss in our cars unfortunately. Vacuum leaks can make you run rich depending are where they are in the chain. Your best bet is to make sure all vacuum leaks are 100% sealed first. Do a smoke test to verify. The exhaust leaks should be easy to detect. Once you know 110% everything is sealed then look at your levels.

Depending on what is showing then I hate to say it but you need to find a tuner who is well known and has a good reputation.


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94GT363

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Act chips have been hit or miss in our cars unfortunately. Vacuum leaks can make you run rich depending are where they are in the chain. Your best bet is to make sure all vacuum leaks are 100% sealed first. Do a smoke test to verify. The exhaust leaks should be easy to detect. Once you know 110% everything is sealed then look at your levels.

Depending on what is showing then I hate to say it but you need to find a tuner who is well known and has a good reputation.


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At this point I'am confident there are no vacuum leaks.. I found the egr leak at the gasket "Egr isnt funtional" the 2nd time letting it run longer but I can do it again. Running rich isn't the issue
 
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94GT363

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After fixing all the leaks I found it, the afr readings were more stable upon start up at 14.7. But gradually after warming up it would lean out more and more. I'm gunna be visiting my engine builder soon to give him an update on everything that Ive found and see what advice he gives as far as tuning
 

evilcw311

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After fixing all the leaks I found it, the afr readings were more stable upon start up at 14.7. But gradually after warming up it would lean out more and more. I'm gunna be visiting my engine builder soon to give him an update on everything that Ive found and see what advice he gives as far as tuning

It’s always going to start rich. This is part of the cold cycle warm up. After it starts to get to temp it should lean out just a bit to get to normal driving conditions.


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Randall Garner

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When you first start the car cold. Your AFR should be 13.8-14.2. 14.7 a bit lean. As far as hotter than normal exhaust out the end. What is your timing set to. If your engine has a non stock cam. Having timing set to stock will also cause problems. Not advanced enough and possibly firing with exhaust valves starting to open. If you know a shop that’s good with modifying tunes and has a dyno. Might be worth the time to a deeper look
 

alwill923

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I sure wish I could help you. It seems there is a lot of finger pointing.
I have installed a proM energy manage system on my 95 to avoid the problems with the stock system and chips with engine mods. With chips you are always at someone else's mercy. If you make one change you may have to go back to get the tune modified. The proM system is hard to get used to but you can adjust everything. Chris Richards is very responsive if you have problems.
In the proM system there is a graph that adjusts the fuel ratio for startup based upon engine temperature. It richens the fuel for cold engine temperatures and as the engine warms up it goes to normal fuel settings (I can access this graph and change). This seems to be your problem in the tune, it is backwards. I have only adjusted the fuel table for better idle but it is easy and you can do it in the car as it is running. I have made some other very minor adjustments but you do not want to touch all the others available (there are hundreds). I have the E303 cam and AFR heads so adjustments were necessary. The ProM system is not cheap nor easy to install but it pays for itself with one change.
 

94GT363

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It’s always going to start rich. This is part of the cold cycle warm up. After it starts to get to temp it should lean out just a bit to get to normal driving conditions.


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Yeah man totally make's sense. I called the 2nd tuner the other day to ask some question's. He told me he tuned the car to run lean at idle so when I come to a stop light it won't stall!! lmao. Gotta say I've never heard that one before!
 

94GT363

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When you first start the car cold. Your AFR should be 13.8-14.2. 14.7 a bit lean. As far as hotter than normal exhaust out the end. What is your timing set to. If your engine has a non stock cam. Having timing set to stock will also cause problems. Not advanced enough and possibly firing with exhaust valves starting to open. If you know a shop that’s good with modifying tunes and has a dyno. Might be worth the time to a deeper look

It has the stage 1 TFS cam. The timing I cant remember, which is fine cause I plan on shipping the car to my engine builder for a new dizzy and to look over stuff. This is probably the hesitation issue I've been experiencing under load.

See the uneven wear? And where it make's contact to the terminal's on the cap some of them aren't worn even as well. And that metal peice that looks like a dick lol is bent off to the left.. So while rotating I'd imagine it having a hard time making consistent contact with the center terminal? Also fine metal shaving's sitting in there I'am sure isn't good.
 

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94GT363

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I sure wish I could help you. It seems there is a lot of finger pointing.
I have installed a proM energy manage system on my 95 to avoid the problems with the stock system and chips with engine mods. With chips you are always at someone else's mercy. If you make one change you may have to go back to get the tune modified. The proM system is hard to get used to but you can adjust everything. Chris Richards is very responsive if you have problems.
In the proM system there is a graph that adjusts the fuel ratio for startup based upon engine temperature. It richens the fuel for cold engine temperatures and as the engine warms up it goes to normal fuel settings (I can access this graph and change). This seems to be your problem in the tune, it is backwards. I have only adjusted the fuel table for better idle but it is easy and you can do it in the car as it is running. I have made some other very minor adjustments but you do not want to touch all the others available (there are hundreds). I have the E303 cam and AFR heads so adjustments were necessary. The ProM system is not cheap nor easy to install but it pays for itself with one change.

I totally wanted that system! New engine harness! Get that coil on plug kit they've! Only problem is... nobody other than me up here in the great white north has heard of Pro-M, there's no dealer's here. I've heard Chris is really good but feel like it would be too much of a headache if there were issue's. Haven't exactly had a easy time lol
 

ttocs

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most of the time the tuning system is only as good as its tuner. The plugs will tell us what is really going on.
 

MaximumRisk

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Crazy thought, but something simple to verify....could they probably have installed the MAF backwards?
 

MaximumRisk

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Another thing, is the MAF calibrated to your size injector?
Maybe post some underhood pics, who knows, maybe we can spot something you might’ve overlooked.
 

Wmac

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This is a very painfull read. Sure looks like the OP has been taken advantage of.

What computer is in the car? T4M0 or J4J1. And where are you located in Ontario?
 

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