New member and crank no start HELP question

[96blak54]

Sounds like a position sensor either crankshaft or cam. The crankshaft sensor wire tends to be exposed to the element and can deteriorate. Crank position sensor and Cam position sensor can just go bad. Either one has the same fail rate, luckily the crank position sensor is an easy one to change down on the front cover in front on passenger side. Cam sensor is on the front cover just below the driver side valve cover and will require some removal of brackets and fluid reservoir. Besure to inspect the plug and wire to the sensor if you change them out.

Also note the reluctor/timing wheel for the crankshaft position has been known to break as its cast made. Not a likely scenario, but has happened.

If you have data reading equipment for OBD2, try looking at cam and crank triggers

 

[Mustang5L5]

Crank or cam position sensor. But you'd have a code for that. However, the signal could be corrupt but not enough to trigger a code. Would need to hook up an oscilloscope and see the signal during a crank to determine if it's good or bad. I'm not sure if live OBD2 data will show useful data for cam/crank signal

If it was PATS related, the THEFT light would blink rapidly during crank. It will turn over, but no spark. I believe OP said theft light does come on, so it should be behaving properly with this regards.


EDIT: Just saw the video. It did attempt to start. SO you have spark. Not sure if it's reliable spark but that was definitely a fire for about 1 second.

Whey you bypassed the FPDM, did you hear the fuel pump come on? Should be a pretty audible whine.

 

[RevJon]

So here's a recap:

Starter fluid into intake gives it a "skip" but no start
Tested three fuel injectors and failed noid test
Fuel pressure at bleeder - 52psi
Tested two spark plugs for spark and both failed
Attempted bypassing the FPDM to no avail
Did a compression test
1: 198 5: 180
2: 190 6: 185
3: 187 7: 187
4: 180 8: 180

Fuel pump runs and runs when priming; and yeah, the chiming thing (?). I have read that when the lights aren't on "auto" they keep chiming, but this 2000 GT doesn't have anything other than the pull headlights (not the switch). But it's annoying af. The car does have some rust so I can try and clean them to make sure of a clean connection, but they aren't loose at all so...I'm stumped. I appreciate you all thinking this through with me so thanks my friends.

 

[RevJon]

Crank or cam position sensor. But you'd have a code for that. However, the signal could be corrupt but not enough to trigger a code. Would need to hook up an oscilloscope and see the signal during a crank to determine if it's good or bad. I'm not sure if live OBD2 data will show useful data for cam/crank signal

If it was PATS related, the THEFT light would blink rapidly during crank. It will turn over, but no spark. I believe OP said theft light does come on, so it should be behaving properly with this regards.


EDIT: Just saw the video. It did attempt to start. SO you have spark. Not sure if it's reliable spark but that was definitely a fire for about 1 second.

Whey you bypassed the FPDM, did you hear the fuel pump come on? Should be a pretty audible whine.

Thanks man for your help. The crank and cam position sensors have been changed as was the timing chain (the mechanic even did it again to make sure he did it correctly). Re: the spark plug tester, I got the end in the well the best I could and cranked it as I had my kid tell me if the light flashed which it didn't.

Yes, when I bypassed the FPDM I made sure I could hear the fuel pump whining before I cranked it. I swore that was going to be the problem, but alas...

 

[RevJon]

Sounds like a position sensor either crankshaft or cam. The crankshaft sensor wire tends to be exposed to the element and can deteriorate. Crank position sensor and Cam position sensor can just go bad. Either one has the same fail rate, luckily the crank position sensor is an easy one to change down on the front cover in front on passenger side. Cam sensor is on the front cover just below the driver side valve cover and will require some removal of brackets and fluid reservoir. Besure to inspect the plug and wire to the sensor if you change them out.

Also note the reluctor/timing wheel for the crankshaft position has been known to break as its cast made. Not a likely scenario, but has happened.

If you have data reading equipment for OBD2, try looking at cam and crank triggers

I'll check the cam sensor wire, and hook up the OBD2 again to look at the cam/crank triggers.

 

[GTamas]

The crank and cam position sensors have been changed as was the timing chain (the mechanic even did it again to make sure he did it correctly)

just an idea, but could be still a faulty sensor even though it was changed? I hear electronic parts nowadays aren't so reliable quality as they used to be in the past, maybe you got bad luck and the sensor went bad after a short initial operation. Or that the old harness that the new sensor connected to got a contact error which was triggered after moving it around during sensor install?

 

[RevJon]

just an idea, but could be still a faulty sensor even though it was changed? I hear electronic parts nowadays aren't so reliable quality as they used to be in the past, maybe you got bad luck and the sensor went bad after a short initial operation. Or that the old harness that the new sensor connected to got a contact error which was triggered after moving it around during sensor install?

I definitely feel like I have bad luck lol…I just don’t want to throw parts at it without knowing what it is

 

[cobrajeff96]

Did you ground the straps of the spark plugs when testing them? Otherwise they would not have produced spark.

The issue could be solely fuel, but we can't know for sure until the spark plug test method checks out correctly.

You could merely be looking at a severed or shorted fuel injector common positive wire. You'd have to partially split open the engine harness at two points to verify this, but it's definitely worth the effort: injector termination points are easy to get to but you'd also need to access the cube connector at the passenger side firewall (but then again I'm not sure about your particular model and year, it could be somewhere else entirely).

 

[RevJon]

Did you ground the straps of the spark plugs when testing them? Otherwise they would not have produced spark.

The issue could be solely fuel, but we can't know for sure until the spark plug test method checks out correctly.

You could merely be looking at a severed or shorted fuel injector common positive wire. You'd have to partially split open the engine harness at two points to verify this, but it's definitely worth the effort: injector termination points are easy to get to but you'd also need to access the cube connector at the passenger side firewall (but then again I'm not sure about your particular model and year, it could be somewhere else entirely).

I got a spark plug tester from Harbor Freight, tried my best to set it in the deep well of the plug, connected the prong to the ignition coil (with coil plugged in) and cranked it. Am I missing something?

 

[Mustang5L5]

Try this way.

Remove a COP and pull the spark plug out. Plug the plug into the COP and try and contact the threaded part to metal. Have someone crank. See if you see spark then.

Two fold, with the plug removed, you should smell fuel from the spraying fuel injector.

I still think it’s fuel related because with all this cranking, you’d be pig rich and smelling it if the injectors were firing.

Also…when you try the starter fluid, open the throttle body fully and spray into the plenum. Then close it and crank. Spraying with the blade closed, it’s possible not enough was getting inside. That’s a long runner lenght it needs to travel.

It did start for a second. I think you have spark. I’m looking at the fuel pump.

 

[ttocs]

pull a plug and see if it smells like fuel and what it looks like. I would trace the injector harness as far back as you can

 

[RevJon]

Try this way.

Remove a COP and pull the spark plug out. Plug the plug into the COP and try and contact the threaded part to metal. Have someone crank. See if you see spark then.

Two fold, with the plug removed, you should smell fuel from the spraying fuel injector.

I still think it’s fuel related because with all this cranking, you’d be pig rich and smelling it if the injectors were firing.

Also…when you try the starter fluid, open the throttle body fully and spray into the plenum. Then close it and crank. Spraying with the blade closed, it’s possible not enough was getting inside. That’s a long runner lenght it needs to travel.

It did start for a second. I think you have spark. I’m looking at the fuel pump.

I pulled the plugs yesterday to do the compression test and they did not smell like fuel and looked dry. Also, from an earlier noid test there was no signal to the injector harness (I tested two plugs). There is good FP at the valve and the pump does run continuously even when priming (so as someone mentioned there might be an issue there). I'll try spraying fluid deeper into the plenum and report back.

 

[96blak54]

The fuel pressure rail sensors are garbage! Period! And then youll replace it with aftermarket only to find itll fail internally allowing fuel to dump into the vacuum line....filling the intake manifold up with gas. Pull the vac line off the fprs and cycle the key to be sure no fuel is pushing out the vacuum port.

I stand behind the fuel pressure sensors are garbage

 

[ttocs]

ok so no fuel for sure then. Just to start simple with wiring, if none of them are working and it is a wiring issue then it would probably need to be the ground for them as I am fairly sure it is common between them although it is not just stuck to the chassis, it goes through the computer(correct me if I am wrong folks). It could be as simple as a bad connection at the ecu or under the hood, a broken wire or possibly a short. Maybe check for continuity on the ground wire just to take something stupid/simple off the list before more parts are thrown at it. And again I am sure I have asked and you have answered but I forgot, we have checked every fuse in the car now right?

 

[weendoggy]

I might have missed it, but you did test injectors with Noid light and said they weren't working (harness end). That was done at the harness. Did you actually test the injector itself? You can do this with a tester (do NOT use 12v) and watch the spray. You'd need to have the tree out (rags under) and test each one with the tester to see if it sprays. This way you'd know if you have fuel pressure at the rail and can eliminate the injectors as a culprit.

 

[RevJon]

ok so no fuel for sure then. Just to start simple with wiring, if none of them are working and it is a wiring issue then it would probably need to be the ground for them as I am fairly sure it is common between them although it is not just stuck to the chassis, it goes through the computer(correct me if I am wrong folks). It could be as simple as a bad connection at the ecu or under the hood, a broken wire or possibly a short. Maybe check for continuity on the ground wire just to take something stupid/simple off the list before more parts are thrown at it. And again I am sure I have asked and you have answered but I forgot, we have checked every fuse in the car now right?

So my scanner won’t read the camshaft/crankshaft waves, but I did notice these (screenshot below, sorry about the glare). Fuel trim running 45% and 99% lean. The fuel pump was running the entire time although the scan tool says it is “off”. Not sure if that means anything. Although when I jumped the FPDM harness there was no start… I’m baffled….but y’all helping makes this less frustrating.

I sprayed a ton of starter fluid into the TB and nothing when I went to crank it.

Tested grounds (all good, anlthough isn’t the FP ground in the pump itself?) and all fuses under hood and on drivers side although the dinging gave me a migraine.

 

[96blak54]

Helps to have 2 people starting and spraying. What ever you sprayed most likely puddled down low into the intake and remained

 

[weendoggy]

Tested grounds (all good, anlthough isn’t the FP ground in the pump itself?) and all fuses under hood and on drivers side although the dinging gave me a migraine.

Not really, the pump ground is a return from the pump to chassis.

 

[RevJon]

Try this way.

Remove a COP and pull the spark plug out. Plug the plug into the COP and try and contact the threaded part to metal. Have someone crank. See if you see spark then.

Two fold, with the plug removed, you should smell fuel from the spraying fuel injector.

I still think it’s fuel related because with all this cranking, you’d be pig rich and smelling it if the injectors were firing.

Also…when you try the starter fluid, open the throttle body fully and spray into the plenum. Then close it and crank. Spraying with the blade closed, it’s possible not enough was getting inside. That’s a long runner lenght it needs to travel.

It did start for a second. I think you have spark. I’m looking at the fuel pump.

Well, tried to test the spark on three different plugs/coils and no blue arc...nothing actually. So I'm looking at the injector harness failing the noid test, no spark, and no fuel. Damn... The mechanic did attempt to swap out the PATS unit but when that didn't work, he put everything back (and I'm not getting the "theft" light on crank up. Again, this is driving me crazy...

 

[cobrajeff96]

Is there any communication with the ECU?