Question about lower control arms

MachSVT

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Like others mentioned simple lowering coils and quality shocks and struts . No need for all the mm bullshit . Especially coilovers unless you want your car to ride like complete dog shit . Eibach pro kit is always a good option . Mm stuff is great for a race car but sucks dick for daily usage . Rides like a skateboard
Want to clarify that I'm not picking...just thinking about the OP's initial ask regarding coil overs as pertaines to control arms. Here's what I learned:

The reason the myth has circulated that coil overs ride like shit is so populr is because people buy shit coil overs, put them on stock geometry cars, lower them past stock geometry and expect great results. It's just not going to happen that way. The fact is, you have to spend the money and understand what it required to obtain your goals. To explain..

1. The main ride advantage to coil overs is MUCH more efficient use of the coil spring energy. This is due to the reduction of friction on the suspension arm pivot point. If you think about the front arm (as an example....same true for rear), the spring is somewhere in the middle between the pivot point and the balljoint. What this means is that the pivot point will use up / own some of that spring tension due to the friction / downward pressure imposed on the bolt. That said, the spring must have a MUCH higher rate to overcome that loss AND have enough for the desired wheel rate. Ideally, you would want the coil spring to be in-line with the arc that the balljoint would travel. This is why Macpherson strut suspension is so popular...lighter weight, MUCH less spring tension is needed due to the friction reduction. The lighter the spring tension / weight, the better the ride.

2. Besides my aformentioned cheap coil over comment (which is more meant to address the damper quality) the suspension geometry needs to be considered. If you wish to keep stock crossmember / arms, but spend money on good coil overs / correct spring rates, you may still ride like shit....why?...likely because you went too low and the geometry is all jacked up. This is why MM's crossmember (the highest arm setting / highest arm ride height) is still 1' LOWER than the stock crossmember. If you are going to lower the wheel ride height, you must address the pivot point ride height as well as the top mount for the strut / camber plates.

3. Reflecting on #1, in a (talking about front as the example) front coil over setup, which you would effectively be converting to a macphereson strut setup, the coil spring becomes around 85% efficient so you need MUCH less spring tension for the same ride result (plus, it's much lighter weight). As an example, my coil over springs are 300 lbs. so 85% of that would be an effective wheel rate of 255. The stock coil spring is 25% efficient, so a stock Mach 1 coil spring is 600 lbs. so that effective wheel rate would be 150 lbs. In short, I went up 105 lbs on my wheel rate, but gained better handling and a better ride!

In summary. Hilljack application of coil overs do result in a shitty ride. If you're going to do it, do it right...you will be rewarded. if you don't have money / knowledge for all of that, stay stock type parts / geometry.
 
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Musturd

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Want to clarify that I'm not picking...just thinking about the OP's initial ask regarding coil overs as pertaines to control arms. Here's what I learned:

The reason the myth has circulated that coil overs ride like shit is so populr is because people buy shit coil overs, put them on stock geometry cars, lower them past stock geometry and expect great results. It's just not going to happen that way. The fact is, you have to spend the money and understand what it required to obtain your goals. To explain..

1. The main ride advantage to coil overs is MUCH more efficient use of the coil spring energy. This is due to the reduction of friction on the suspension arm pivot point. If you think about the front arm (as an example....same true for rear), the spring is somewhere in the middle between the pivot point and the balljoint. What this means is that the pivot point will use up / own some of that spring tension due to the friction / downward pressure imposed on the bolt. That said, the spring must have a MUCH higher rate to overcome that loss AND have enough for the desired wheel rate. Ideally, you would want the coil spring to be in-line with the arc that the balljoint would travel. This is why Macpherson strut suspension is so popular...lighter weight, MUCH less spring tension is needed due to the friction reduction. The lighter the spring tension / weight, the better the ride.

2. Besides my aformentioned cheap coil over comment (which is more meant to address the damper quality) the suspension geometry needs to be considered. If you wish to keep stock crossmember / arms, but spend money on good coil overs / correct spring rates, you may still ride like shit....why?...likely because you went too low and the geometry is all jacked up. This is why MM's crossmember (the highest arm setting / highest arm ride height) is still 1' LOWER than the stock crossmember. If you are going to lower the wheel ride height, you must address the pivot point ride height as well as the top mount for the strut / camber plates.

3. Reflecting on #1, in a (talking about front as the example) front coil over setup, which you would effectively be converting to a macphereson strut setup, the coil spring becomes around 85% efficient so you need MUCH less spring tension for the same ride result (plus, it's much lighter weight). As an example, my coil over springs are 300 lbs. so 85% of that would be an effective wheel rate of 255. The stock coil spring is 25% efficient, so a stock Mach 1 coil spring is 600 lbs. so that effective wheel rate would be 150 lbs. In short, I went up 105 lbs on my wheel rate, but gained better handling and a better ride!

In summary. Hilljack application of coil overs do result in a shitty ride. If you're going to do it, do it right...you will be rewarded. if you don't have money / knowledge for all of that, stay stock type parts / geometry.


lol if you run a sleeve style coilover and not a proper coilover they ride like shit. Like bilstein mm coilovers . Guys trying to sound like scientist over there . Unless they’re a real coilover they suck for daily driving period . Coilover conversions don’t ride good regardless of the spring rate . It’s notta myth either I’m speaking facts .
 

MachSVT

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lol if you run a sleeve style coilover and not a proper coilover they ride like shit. Like bilstein mm coilovers . Guys trying to sound like scientist over there . Unless they’re a real coilover they suck for daily driving period . Coilover conversions don’t ride good regardless of the spring rate . It’s notta myth either I’m speaking facts .
Let me ask this about your facts...

If the Fox suspension that remained the same since 79 production (geometrically speaking) was so superior in ride, why isn't it still used? Why doesn't every manufacturer use that design for RWD?

Why did my Mach 1 with stock suspension not ride anywhere near as good as it does now? If anything, that proves a fact, as I actually did all the work...the right way, with the right parts.

Lastly, pretty much every suspension player you can think of offers coil over sleeves for the dampers that are appropriately valved.

The only real facts I can find is that the stock stuff is MUCH cheaper, MUCH easier. Any ole parts replacer can upgrade the stock type stuff. To the loose point I believe you are making, you can absolutely ruin a car if you don't know what you are doing...and I bet that's more prevalent than not.
 

shovel

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Let me ask this about your facts...

If the Fox suspension that remained the same since 79 production (geometrically speaking) was so superior in ride, why isn't it still used? Why doesn't every manufacturer use that design for RWD?

Modular assembly is much less expensive (labor) and moving the coil outboard provides more room to package the catalyst & OHC heads inside the engine bay & allows the manufacturer to isolate engine NVH and road NVH independently from each other. These things are all valuable on their own but don't have much to do with ride or handling.

Why did my Mach 1 with stock suspension not ride anywhere near as good as it does now? If anything, that proves a fact, as I actually did all the work...the right way, with the right parts.

Ride quality is subjective, none of us is going to do a thing that costs us money and then tell ourselves and others we did a dumb thing and none of us will ever agree on the best pizza toppings, the best music or the best ride character. I've seen professional car reviewers complain about the ride quality on present-era six figure cars, like as if benz or porsche didn't spend millions developing that suspension and we're all sitting here in our jammies buying parts from amazon.

If you like how yours rides, cool but that doesn't mean anything - I'm not picking on you here this goes for all of us, me and everyone.

If it slays on the track then you have lap times recorded and those speak for themselves, albeit a car might be unbearable to ride in and still pick up some good numbers so we're back to square one on that.


Lastly, pretty much every suspension player you can think of offers coil over sleeves for the dampers that are appropriately valved.

Companies sell what they think they can make money on and justifying it is marketing's job. There's companies that sell directional speaker wires to audio geeks and right now there's geeks on an audio forum joking with each other about the dumb things we spend money on. For the record I don't have a problem with sleeved coilover kits I just don't think that's a make-or-break component of this conversation.

The only real facts I can find is that the stock stuff is MUCH cheaper, MUCH easier. Any ole parts replacer can upgrade the stock type stuff. To the loose point I believe you are making, you can absolutely ruin a car if you don't know what you are doing...and I bet that's more prevalent than not.

Strictly talking about DIY effort I'd rather install a coilover strut than fight a stock height divorced coil. I can do it, done it lots of times but it's always a real hassle compared to a strut. Maybe the first time you install a strut with c/c plates and all that it's some extra effort but forever after that it's cake. Anyway you're right about that last part we can all ruin a car and it is more prevalent than not. The hilarious part is we all can identify when someone else did it wrong but it's never, ever, ever ourselves. Nope not me I did it right it's everyone else who did it wrong. ;)
 

Musturd

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Let me ask this about your facts...

If the Fox suspension that remained the same since 79 production (geometrically speaking) was so superior in ride, why isn't it still used? Why doesn't every manufacturer use that design for RWD?

Why did my Mach 1 with stock suspension not ride anywhere near as good as it does now? If anything, that proves a fact, as I actually did all the work...the right way, with the right parts.

Lastly, pretty much every suspension player you can think of offers coil over sleeves for the dampers that are appropriately valved.

The only real facts I can find is that the stock stuff is MUCH cheaper, MUCH easier. Any ole parts replacer can upgrade the stock type stuff. To the loose point I believe you are making, you can absolutely ruin a car if you don't know what you are doing...and I bet that's more prevalent than not.
You’re funny and very hostile new guy .
 

MachSVT

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You’re funny and very hostile new guy .
Not at all hostile, but I do indeed enjoy cynical fun here and there. I see things that people state as holistic facts that (both) don't make sense from an engneering standpoint, as well as have not been my experience over my 53 years. A fact in your world could be a fallicy in mine...and vice versa ;)

I do understand where your point(s) comes from, because it appears you like drag racing....nothing wrong with that...me too! Truth is I like most all racing except the roundy round stuff. I do a ton of reading, research, trial and error.

From all I can see that you share on this forum, I would agree with your opinion on how it is you use / enjoy your cars. I don't think that applies to how everyone uses / enjoys their own cars.

I don't go anywhere with the intent of "I'm right / you're wrong!"....I'd never learn anything! I do communicate to share counterpoints, my experiences, etc.
 
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Bronco2Fan

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I really appreciate all the info and feedback from you guys. Sometimes this stuff gets to damn technical to make a simple decision. I don't have to buy anything right away, as the Convertible is put away for the winter. But I'd like to have my parts here before spring. And cost really isn't a concern.

As you all have stated, I just don't want to make things worse or have it ride like crap. Or spend a load of money on Chinese or Mexican parts that don't last.
 

MachSVT

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I really appreciate all the info and feedback from you guys. Sometimes this stuff gets to damn technical to make a simple decision. I don't have to buy anything right away, as the Convertible is put away for the winter. But I'd like to have my parts here before spring. And cost really isn't a concern.

As you all have stated, I just don't want to make things worse or have it ride like crap. Or spend a load of money on Chinese or Mexican parts that don't last.
One thing that was not discussed that has a VERY big impact on ride quality of coil overs (especially)...but applicable for any suspension type...

Subframe connectors should be a given, regardless of suspension choice. This is especially critical because you are relocating the pressure point of the spring. This would be exacerbated with a convertible.

Coil overs on a car without subframe connectors is yet another misapplication that feeds the perception / opinion.
 

PNW Mike

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One thing that was not discussed that has a VERY big impact on ride quality of coil overs (especially)...but applicable for any suspension type...

Subframe connectors should be a given, regardless of suspension choice. This is especially critical because you are relocating the pressure point of the spring. This would be exacerbated with a convertible.

Coil overs on a car without subframe connectors is yet another misapplication that feeds the perception / opinion.
What, you don't like driving around in a car where the front and back ends are going in visibly different directions because the body is flexing that much over harsh bumps? :)

The first time I drove over railroad tracks in my '97 with the top down and watched the entire windshield frame move around seperately from the dash and what I could see of the hood, well, that was downright unnerving. Good subframe connectors are a game changer - it's crazy how much flex was deemed "acceptable" by the factory. I honestly don't know how the windshields in SN95 convertibles manage to not break into a million pieces on every major bump or pothole due to how much they flex.


I really appreciate all the info and feedback from you guys. Sometimes this stuff gets to damn technical to make a simple decision. I don't have to buy anything right away, as the Convertible is put away for the winter. But I'd like to have my parts here before spring. And cost really isn't a concern.

As you all have stated, I just don't want to make things worse or have it ride like crap. Or spend a load of money on Chinese or Mexican parts that don't last.

I hope we've been able to help you figure out your next steps and give you some perspective into the options. Ride quality is incredibly subjective, but there is a lot of collected learnings (and, of course, some strong opinions!) to be had from the group. Hopefully you can avoid some of the mistakes I and so many others have made by going with the wrong parts (in my case, a entry level lowering kit) and wondering why your car suddenly rides so badly or otherwise behaves differently than you expected/wanted.

A huge part of the problem is removing flex from the chasis and allowing the suspension to work on what it's supposed to do, and keeping in mind the inherent compromises Ford engineers made between cost and other factors. Factory stuff rides well because it's designed to - but it also tends to drive more softly and less reposively than many of us would like - my Mustang felt like driving a marshmellow in comparison to some of my newer cars, which drove me crazy, so started trying to fix it. Predictably, I made a number of rookie mistakes on my first round of "upgrades" and I learned from them. I changed my suspension and lowered the car first, then added subframe connectors - oops. More modern cars than the SN95 era Mustangs have super stiff chassis in comparison, and it helps a ton with both ride and handling.

Another lesson I learned the hard way is that the low profile tires that many of us think look great on our cars will also worsen your ride quality much more than you may realize at first. Naturally, I lowered my car and added lower profile tires at the same time - it looked much better, but rode way worse. Lessons were learned.

If you can find someone near you with suspension upgrades/changes and get a chance to ride in their car and see if what they did works for you tastes (and more importantly, if it doesn't work for you!), that can be a huge help.

BTW, I'll have some entry level lowering springs and such for sale at some point. :)
 

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