The Great Boost Discussion Thread - GOOD INFO INSIDE!!!

Hellion94

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I thought the topic that Javi brought up in the thread about the KB '94 GT in the Member's Rides section could be a pretty interesting discussion, so I figured I'd start a thread about it.

Here's what Javi said for reference (And this is by no means a dig on anyone, I really thought it would be a good topic for discussion):

I bet onyx will be able to tell you, but for fun
i believe Vortech is the most effective SC for a 5.0...

I'll start it off with a question, Are we simply stating that Vortech in particular makes the most effective SC for a pushrod based engine, or that centrifugal superchargers are better than a roots or twin-screw type on a 5.0L?

I think there's some interesting theory that could apply based on power curve differences between pushrod and modular Mustang engines.

Discuss.
 

Paul

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Re: In Response to Javi's Post....

This almost sounds like a topic that should be under "Forced Induction & Tuning."


I like hamburgers.
 

MustangChris

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Re: In Response to Javi's Post....

hellion, its been a while since ive seen you around. good to see ya.
 

IceMan

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Re: In Response to Javi's Post....

I have never had a KB on a pushrod motor, although I had a KB2.2L on my 04 Cobra when I had it and loved it... Big thing about the twin screw superchargers is the heat... They make some serious heat... Hot air + boost + pump gas = too much detonation... (granted I was pushing 18-20 PSI out of it)... My 04 made over 600 RWHP with that blower and supporting mods but it took a lot of tuning and at the end race gas... Good thing about them is they make instant boost and you get some crazy TQ numbers at low RPM's... On a second note I had a 94 GT with a Vortech V1 S-Trim and by far it was the easiest to install, made great power and it sounded wicked at idle... I loved it... I also had a 95 GT with a D1 Procharger... A bit of a pain in the neck to install, but the power was awesome... I loved that sound also, even better than the Vortech... I have done it all, spray, supercharger, turbo, you name it... On a pushrod motor the easiest, fastest, simplest way to air charge (other than nitrous) is a Vortech... If you are looking at some 400-450hp on pump gas, street driven car, thna Vortech is the way to go... My 94 GT with bolt-on's S-Trim built AODE at 8.5 PSI made 411 RWHP and it was a blast to drive... I loved it... My 95 GT with the Procharger made 634 RWHP and I dont think I could have done that with the Vortech... If you are going for max horsepower I say go Procharger, if you want simplicity, reliability, decent power than go Vortech... And you ask, well, where does Kenne Bell get in the mix... I think that Kenne Bell is a great supercharger... It's a bit harder to make BIG horsepower with it unless you are spinning the crap out of it because of the heat (yes I know there is ways to solve this I have done them)... You will always have people favor one over the other, all of them have pros and cons, but most people will go Vortech because they are simpler and easier to install and they make good power... This is just my .02...
 

IceMan

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Re: In Response to Javi's Post....

BTW, When I went turbo for the first time and saw how simple is to make stupid power from them... I think I'm staying with TURBO for big HP cars...
 
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Hellion94

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Re: In Response to Javi's Post....

MustangChris said:
hellion, its been a while since ive seen you around. good to see ya.

Thanks! I had a lot change in my life when the economy fell apart and had a while there where I was working a couple of jobs and stuff, basically didn't have time for cars and was just generally frustrated with life, but things are on the upswing now, so all is good.


IceMan said:
Long Statement...

That's exactly what I'm talking about. You make some good points about the heat, ease of install, etc.. Sounds like you've had some serious stuff!

In going back to my first post, I think that the main difference between power adders on certain engines will be power production and powerband. Javi had said in the thread I was referencing that he believed KB's were best suited to Modulars, and on some levels I agree. I don't think they should be limited to modulars, but I think that the powerbands help eachother. What I mean is that a KB, Whipple, what have you will produce fantastic low-end power, which as we all know, the modulars lack severely. In that case, I think that the added airflow and RPM of a modular help to even out the low end hit of a Twin screw or roots - it provides the power where the engine needs it, and the engine helps to carry power out when the blower runs out of efficiency.

On the same token however, you could argue that a Modular would LOVE a top-end monster like a centrifugal. If a modular powerband is already located north of 4,000 or 5,000 RPM, imagine the screamer it would become with a blower that's design makes it excel in those areas. As we've seen with Modular Cobras and Mach 1's, a Centrifugal creates a top-end screamer that'll never stop pulling, but will lack in the low end.

I think the same logic could apply to the power characteristics of a Pushrod engine.
 

MustangChris

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Re: In Response to Javi's Post....

Hellion,

How do you feel a "top end screamer" would perform in the 1/4? clearly a drag queen is a pretty specific build. once you get the car in 2nd gear, it shouldnt see lower RPMs where the top mounts hold alot of potencial. but will the 60' take too long to get through without some low-end help?

if you change your gear ratios in hopes of aiding in the initial "attack" (launch, 60', 1st gear, etc.) while making a "high ROM screamer" you wont hold those "high RPMs" that the engine was built to perform in for a very long time... thus shifting to "mid-range" RPMs again and having to build back up.

would a top-end screamer make a better "fast 1/4 car" with alot of streetablilty (12 second 1/4 or so)
or would it make a pretty efficiant "1/4 car" with not alot of streetability? (10 seconds or better, but hard to accelerate, and thus more difficult to drive on a daily basis?)
 
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Hellion94

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Re: In Response to Javi's Post....

MustangChris said:
Hellion,

How do you feel a "top end screamer" would perform in the 1/4? clearly a drag queen is a pretty specific build. once you get the car in 2nd gear, it shouldnt see lower RPMs where the top mounts hold alot of potencial. but will the 60' take too long to get through without some low-end help?

if you change your gear ratios in hopes of aiding in the initial "attack" (launch, 60', 1st gear, etc.) while making a "high ROM screamer" you wont hold those "high RPMs" that the engine was built to perform in for a very long time... thus shifting to "mid-range" RPMs again and having to build back up.

would a top-end screamer make a better "fast 1/4 car" with alot of streetablilty (12 second 1/4 or so)
or would it make a pretty efficiant "1/4 car" with not alot of streetability? (10 seconds or better, but hard to accelerate, and thus more difficult to drive on a daily basis?)

And thus begins the great debate.... haha.

In my opinion, and this has been proven time and time again, Top end is the name of the game in Drag Racing. Look at every engine that excels in drag racing, and you'll see high RPM power, it's just the nature of the beast.

I think that often time people think it's your power or where you make it that determines how well the car works on a dragstrip, and how fast it will go. In the end, you want to the most power you can make everywhere (obviously), but if there's an emphasis, it's on the top end. In a race as long ( yes long ) as a quarter mile, you will have to have a strong top end, or 6 gears. Your engine is going to be high up in the rpm range no matter what, so it's best to have the power there, basically.

Aside from the power, the car's setup will determine if it works on the track. Low end power will spin the tires just as easily as top end power if it's not harnessed correctly. So to sum that up, I would say make a ton of power up top, get the chassis to work, and let it ride.

For the street though, it's unlikely that you're going to spend a lot of time int he high RPM's. So in that respect, it comes down to where you put your emphasis. Is this a car you want to go as fast as possible and work on the street, or a car you drive everyday that you take to the track for fun. That will be the biggest factor in which type of powerband will work best. Low-end is much more fun on the street, but nothing beats top end at the track.
 

modo

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Re: In Response to Javi's Post....

i guess you the op would have to clarify was most effective means

i truly believe and the white papers prove it that the vortech compressors are some of the most efficient on the market when it comes to cent blowers. most other companies won't even publish the papers.


iceman... when you said the vortech wouldn't match the d1 i would assume your talking about a s-trim? there are s-trims making well over 600 rwhp. just need to properly size the blower to the motor
 

IceMan

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Re: In Response to Javi's Post....

To modo:
Yes, I ment the S-Trim, since that is what I had... Vortech and Procharger are neck to neck along with the Paxton NOVI 2000, but I have never had a NOVI blower... They are all great blowers, and you cant go wrong with whatever you buy... I like the Procharger because the FMIC... My Vortech car had a stock 117K mile 302 shortblock and my Procharger car had a built motor so it was hard to tell what charger built better/faster boost... If anyone wants to go Vortech a AMF powerpipe is a MUST... Much better power gains... For the average "I want to supercharge my car" guy a Vortech is the way to go... Prochargers can be a little ticky to handle and install but I think they have better longevity...
 

IceMan

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Re: In Response to Javi's Post....

My Vortech was great for me... I wanted to keep it a street car and cruise in it and 380 RWHP is the max I thought I was going to be able to make at 9psi... I made 411 RWHP through a AODE, 2800 stall, 42lb injectors, 255 intank pump, unported GT40 heads, 1.7 RR's E303 cam, AMF powerpipe, shorty headers, H pipe, flowmasters, and some smaller bolt ons and we saw 8.5 psi... I was VERY happy with the result... I went 12.28 in the 1/4 on 17 inch drag radials and the car was a heavy vert...
 
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Hellion94

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Re: In Response to Javi's Post....

modo said:
i guess you the op would have to clarify was most effective means

i truly believe and the white papers prove it that the vortech compressors are some of the most efficient on the market when it comes to cent blowers. most other companies won't even publish the papers.


iceman... when you said the vortech wouldn't match the d1 i would assume your talking about a s-trim? there are s-trims making well over 600 rwhp. just need to properly size the blower to the motor

Well I think that's the interesting topic that's at hand with this debate, what is "Most effective"?

Like I said in my previous post, most effective can depend on a lot of variables, and those variables will change from person to person due to their specific preferences.

However, without generalizing the topic too much, I think what I found interesting about Javi's post was the singling out or categorizing of one power adder to a certain engine. That's where I think the real debate about "most effective" can begin. What makes a modular run like a bat out of hell? Same for the pushrod, what can make it untouchable? Are there benefits to one type of forced induction on a certain motor over another type? That's what I found was so interesting. So in short, I can't define what " most effective" is. because there are so many variables, but that's why there are discussions like this one.
 

got5.0

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Re: In Response to Javi's Post....

I think the KB is a lot of fun, sounds great, really agressive, very streetable, makes INSTANT power, has fantastic torque, and is just plain cool to listen to. It sounds like the car is eating the road, and the road is screaming lol.
 

got5.0

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Re: In Response to Javi's Post....

oh and also, I don't give a crap about 1/4 mile times, I like driving on the street and on road courses.... I think thats where its all at!
 
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Hellion94

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Re: In Response to Javi's Post....

got5.0 said:
oh and also, I don't give a crap about 1/4 mile times, I like driving on the street and on road courses.... I think thats where its all at!

Which matches up perfectly with what I said earlier. For the street, low end power is the best.

But remember that this topic isn't about which power adder is best, it's about which is best on which engine.
 

got5.0

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Re: In Response to Javi's Post....

^Yeah, for the street, KB rules all lol, but on the srip, Turbo FTW... I don't know enough about 4.6's to speak more though, sorry.
 

modo

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Re: In Response to Javi's Post....

IceMan said:
To modo:
Yes, I ment the S-Trim, since that is what I had... Vortech and Procharger are neck to neck along with the Paxton NOVI 2000, but I have never had a NOVI blower... They are all great blowers, and you cant go wrong with whatever you buy... I like the Procharger because the FMIC... My Vortech car had a stock 117K mile 302 shortblock and my Procharger car had a built motor so it was hard to tell what charger built better/faster boost... If anyone wants to go Vortech a AMF powerpipe is a MUST... Much better power gains... For the average "I want to supercharge my car" guy a Vortech is the way to go... Prochargers can be a little ticky to handle and install but I think they have better longevity...

i would have to strongly disagree from experience and being in the game a long time. the most reliable cent blowers are the vortech for sure and the paxton as well since vortech owns them. there is a reason why they come with a 3 year warranty and the prochargers offer it if you want to pay for it.

the fmic is needed with the procharger compressors smaller then the f series. the adiabatic efficiency just isnt there. there is a reason why you can't get their compressor maps but vortech and all turbo manufacturer's do make them available

do a quick search on procharger failure on the corral vs the other brands and you will see a large difference. but thats a different topic for a different day


hellion...
in all honestly you can't say one type of motor responds better to one power adder then another that is just non-sense and from what you posted you know that already. take the 4v cobras for instance. people say them motors love positive displacements. well give me one and i'll slap a nice Vortech CCW YSI on it and it will run circles around all them postivie displacement blowers. same goes for putting a properly sized turbo setup on it. too many variables

comes down to wants / needs / purpose, choose the right part for the right application :)
 

MustangChris

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Re: In Response to Javi's Post....

first:
whats a fmic?
and second:
should we make a "theoretical car" to debate about?

1995 GT 5.0 100% OEM - vortec vs. KB vs. Turbo? or is that just a dumb idea?

this is a ery informative thread, so i dont want to see it die with "just pick the right part" as the nail in the coffin. lol.

alot of us greenys can get some hard-core knowlege here, but we'll have to keep the thread going....
 

IceMan

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Re: In Response to Javi's Post....

Front Mount Intercooler FMIC. For a stockish application Vortech is the way to go. I have had Vortech and Procharger and never realy had any problems with either. Both of them did great for me.
 

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