To sway bar or not to sway bar... this is my question

[TheOdessa]

So I'm almost done with my suspension build and the last thing really eating at me is the sway bars. They are stock. The mounts are energy suspension poly and the links are MOOG poly... but the bar itself. Should I upgrade the front and rear bar itself?

I read a lot of good reviews on AM, but I take them with a grain of salt half the time (have you read the reviews on the TB spacer on there?!).

Anyway, should I? Is it worth the coin? I'm a weekend spirited driver but trying to figure out if it's needed, will I feel a huge difference, or should I focus elsewhere?

https://www.americanmuscle.com/srperformance-swaybar-kit-9404.html

 

[white95]

For what you’re planning to do, I’d leave them be. However, if you want to fine tune your suspension then changing sway bars can be beneficial.

Here is a good read:

https://5xracing.com/p-24306-sway-bar-tuning.html

 

[Warhorse Racing]

So I'm almost done with my suspension build and the last thing really eating at me is the sway bars. They are stock. The mounts are energy suspension poly and the links are MOOG poly... but the bar itself. Should I upgrade the front and rear bar itself?

I read a lot of good reviews on AM, but I take them with a grain of salt half the time (have you read the reviews on the TB spacer on there?!).

Anyway, should I? Is it worth the coin? I'm a weekend spirited driver but trying to figure out if it's needed, will I feel a huge difference, or should I focus elsewhere?

https://www.americanmuscle.com/srperformance-swaybar-kit-9404.html

Sway bars are one of the most personal choices you can make when it comes to suspension. But, it's important to note that, in addition to the positive benefits of bigger sway bars, they increase understeer and oversteer. Adding a larger front sway bar to a car that doesn't have some adjustability in the suspension will INCREASE understeer. Adding a larger rear sway bar to a car that doesn't have adjustability in the suspension will INCREASE oversteer. SN95 Mustangs with coil overs generally perform better with smaller front sway bars (V6 bars are a common choice).

I use a 35mm front bar on all my autocross cars (Steeda and Eibach), because it helps keep the car flat during transitions (slaloms, lane changes). But, I set my front struts at 2 out of 5 (pretty soft). If I go to 3, the car understeers like crazy.

The SR Performance front sway bar doesn't have flanges that go up against the bushings, which isn't an ideal design. If you look at the Steeda front sway bar, you can see the flange I'm referring to.

A 24mm rear sway bar is pretty big. You will need to be able to adjust around its stiffness.

What tendency of the car are you trying to correct? What are you asking it to do that it can't do? Knowing the answer to those questions will help determine if you need larger sway bars. But, if you have coil overs, or if you don't have adjustable shocks and struts, I think you will ultimately make the car worse by adding larger sway bars. ​

 

[joe65]

yeah if you're really just wanting to do it, get on the MM website or any other reputable susp. company and ask them for a recommendation. I do that with MM and they respond always within a day. If you get a reply from Jack Hedley at MM he's the boss when talking about what works well together depending on your setup and what you want to do.

 

[TheOdessa]

Thanks everyone. After reading everyone's input I'm just going to keep it as is. To answer the question of what I wanted from the car - just the best handling I can get from a Vert. It already handles straight as an arrow for me and super tight in the turns with the mods I have now. I just wasn't sure if larger sway bars were the final drop in my suspension build to then move onto my power adder phase.

Whitehorse I appreciate the heads up on the sway bars and features of different brands. This is why I typically post before buying a part because there is usually a reason some parts are more expensive. Thank you very much!

Next up moving onto my power adder phase/exterior restoration phase. Thanks all.

 

[Warhorse Racing]

Thanks everyone. After reading everyone's input I'm just going to keep it as is. To answer the question of what I wanted from the car - just the best handling I can get from a Vert. It already handles straight as an arrow for me and super tight in the turns with the mods I have now. I just wasn't sure if larger sway bars were the final drop in my suspension build to then move onto my power adder phase.

Whitehorse I appreciate the heads up on the sway bars and features of different brands. This is why I typically post before buying a part because there is usually a reason some parts are more expensive. Thank you very much!

Next up moving onto my power adder phase/exterior restoration phase. Thanks all.

I’m always happy to help.

One of my autocross cars is a 2000 GT convertible. These cars present some challenges when getting them to handle, because the chassis isn’t very stiff and (with the top up) the weight balance isn’t great. Adjustable shocks & struts make a big difference, but another thing to look at is mass centralization.

A lot of people focus purely on weight reduction, but MOVING or ADDING weight to the right area can also help a car handle.

Shedding weight ahead of the firewall helps a lot. Simple mods like lightweight A-arms and a lightweight front bumper support can help. More complicated things like an aluminum flywheel also make a difference. Of course, you can always do a lighter K-member.

I used the Stifflers FIT System on my convertible, which allowed me to use a Stifflers 4-pt lower chassis brace instead of the OEM convertible front chassis brace. This takes about 20 lbs. off the FRONT of the car, and ADDS about 40 lbs. to the CENTER of the car (down low, exactly where you want weight).

Add that to the 20 lbs. I removed by installing tubular spring perch A-arms and a lightweight front bumper support, and I’ve taken 40 lbs. off the front end.

The added stiffness and mass centralization made the car handle much better, even though I didn’t save any weight.

 

[TheOdessa]

I’m always happy to help.

One of my autocross cars is a 2000 GT convertible. These cars present some challenges when getting them to handle, because the chassis isn’t very stiff and (with the top up) the weight balance isn’t great. Adjustable shocks & struts make a big difference, but another thing to look at is mass centralization.

A lot of people focus purely on weight reduction, but MOVING or ADDING weight to the right area can also help a car handle.

Shedding weight ahead of the firewall helps a lot. Simple mods like lightweight A-arms and a lightweight front bumper support can help. More complicated things like an aluminum flywheel also make a difference. Of course, you can always do a lighter K-member.

I used the Stifflers FIT System on my convertible, which allowed me to use a Stifflers 4-pt lower chassis brace instead of the OEM convertible front chassis brace. This takes about 20 lbs. off the FRONT of the car, and ADDS about 40 lbs. to the CENTER of the car (down low, exactly where you want weight).

Add that to the 20 lbs. I removed by installing tubular spring perch A-arms and a lightweight front bumper support, and I’ve taken 40 lbs. off the front end.

The added stiffness and mass centralization made the car handle much better, even though I didn’t save any weight.

This is amazing info I really appreciate it. Over the years I've just built the car as a cruise/hobby car with not direct goal in mind. I've always just wanted a good street cruiser car that handled well all around and I could have fun in.

I've been eyeing tubular K members and A arms a while ago but never really pulled the trigger on it due to cost/what I already put into it. What K member did you go with? I'm also going to be looking into this FIT system as well. Also good thoughts on the mass centralization as well. That makes a ton of sense.

With these verts it just always seemed to be a battle for me personally to get it to handle like I want it to. Sure I did what I could to stiffen the frame and such but I guess a lot of it was geared in the beginning towards straight line dragging. I had that stop light to stop light mentality. I always focused on beefing up things to handle extra power of a blower that I didn't always have handling in mind.

 

[Warhorse Racing]

This is amazing info I really appreciate it. Over the years I've just built the car as a cruise/hobby car with not direct goal in mind. I've always just wanted a good street cruiser car that handled well all around and I could have fun in.

I've been eyeing tubular K members and A arms a while ago but never really pulled the trigger on it due to cost/what I already put into it. What K member did you go with? I'm also going to be looking into this FIT system as well. Also good thoughts on the mass centralization as well. That makes a ton of sense.

With these verts it just always seemed to be a battle for me personally to get it to handle like I want it to. Sure I did what I could to stiffen the frame and such but I guess a lot of it was geared in the beginning towards straight line dragging. I had that stop light to stop light mentality. I always focused on beefing up things to handle extra power of a blower that I didn't always have handling in mind.

It's a good idea to define exactly what you want the car to be. There are "race car" decisions that can make the car less enjoyable to drive on the street.

I have made it a point to prove to people that you don't need an aftermarket K-member to build a competitive autocross car. Right now, all of my cars use OEM K-members. Up until this season, my minimum weight requirement was 3,300 lbs. I was able to get my cars to that weight without K-members or coil overs.

Now that the minimum weight is 3,000 lbs., I'm looking into various K-members. But, I don't plan on switching to coil overs, so that limits my options. I know many people will disagree with me on that, but I've been very competitive on course without coil overs, so I see no need to upgrade. Because I haven't personally used an aftermarket K-member, I don't think it's fair for me to praise or criticize any particular brand. I'm curious to see how much the BMR K-members weigh and what they're made out of, because I use BMR A-arms on my GT.

Honestly, I think swapping to adjustable shocks and struts will be your best option. They allow you to have some control over understeer and oversteer, which helps these cars immensely.

Here's a video about how they work and how to use them to adjust your suspension... The video is for my Fox, but I had the same suspension on my 2000 GT before the IRS swap. Both cars have beaten s197 and s550 Mustangs out on course.

The "stiffer" you make these cars, the more they need some measure of adjustability in the suspension.

 

[Frank.JD.Perez]

I have a factory 97 gt front sway and an eibach rear. I dont have much issue passing cars that are significantly faster than our on paper. Although i will probably go no rear sway in the future and compensate with bigger rear springs. We'll see

 

[Adfalenski]

I have Stifflers chassis products from the K-member and tubular control arms on back. Prior to the Stifflers, I had installed performance sway bars, rear lower control arms, Strange adjustable shocks, AND 18” staggered wheels with 18/275 tires front and 18/295 tires rear. Handling was better from stock, but once I had all of the Stifflers Fit-system installed, handling was rock-solid. It was the difference between night and day.

 

[Michael Soldan]

Do you all run with strut tower braces in your modified suspensions?

 

[Warhorse Racing]

Do you all run with strut tower braces in your modified suspensions?

Every input, steering, throttle and braking, must go through the chassis. From a performance standpoint, you want those inputs to be direct, not diluted. Chassis flex dilutes those inputs. If you add power and improve handling and braking, you are putting more aggressive inputs through the chassis, especially under performance driving conditions.

The benefits of chassis bracing can be felt on the street, but they tend to add some NVH (noise, vibration, harshness). A strut tower brace can help the way the front end feels, but there are other areas to consider when you’re looking to get the most out of your chassis. Do you already have subframe connectors? Are you using the car for track/autocross, or just street driving? What other mods have you made to the front suspension?

Here’s a video I made about the bracing I use in my 2004 V6 autocross car. It includes a review of how the car felt after the upgrades.

If you have any questions, please ask. I’m happy to help.

 

[TrickVert]

Warhorse: Lots of good info. Does the Stiffler's Lower chassis brace gain any ground clearance vs. the factory cross brace?

 

[Warhorse Racing]

Warhorse: Lots of good info. Does the Stiffler's Lower chassis brace gain any ground clearance vs. the factory cross brace?

Unfortunately, no. It sits just a bit lower. I've never had it hit anything, but my cars aren't super-low (or driven daily).

It's worth mentioning that Stifflers doesn't recommend replacing the OEM front convertible brace with theirs unless you are using the entire FIT System. Based on the amount of flex in the chassis, and where the two braces mount, that makes sense to me.

 

[Adfalenski]

Warhorse’s video says everything I couldn’t about my Stifflers install. My chrome-moly k-member and front control arms offset the added weight from the Fit system a little. Still, handling in curves more than makes up for the added weight. My 1991 Buick Roadmaster wagon took the curves better than my 2000 3.8L mustang until I upgraded the chassis.

About the subframe connector install - once I tack welded the subframe connectors at each end, I had an air gap in the middle between the subframe connector and the body. I put a jack under the subframe connector at the greatest gap point and then jacked it up until the subframe connector was flush with the body and then finished welding it into place. Once I lowered the jack, it actually pulled the body down to relieve the slight twist I had in the body.

 

[Warhorse Racing]

I’ve mentioned the FIT System to a lot of people, and they often have concerns about the added weight. Many people focus on weight reduction when getting their cars to perform, but mass centralization is just as (if not more) important. Your goal is to get the weight distribution as close to 50/50 as possible. Sometimes that means moving or adding weight to the center of the car.

Adding 42 lbs. low on the chassis in the center of the car is a GOOD thing. Combining that with taking weight off the front end will also help with the overall balance of the car.

My 2004 V6 has an identical suspension setup to my 2000 GT convertible. But, because the V6 has much less weight up front, it has a near 50/50 weight distribution. Even with 80 less horsepower, it’s a faster car on an autocross course. That’s the power of balance.

 

[95opal]

The entire Stifflers catalog under mine along with some griggs racing stuff.

 

[TheOdessa]

The entire Stifflers catalog under mine along with some griggs racing stuff.View attachment 4167

Wow that just looking amazing. What did all that run you? You weren’t messing around.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[waynenorcross]

So I'm almost done with my suspension build and the last thing really eating at me is the sway bars. They are stock. The mounts are energy suspension poly and the links are MOOG poly... but the bar itself. Should I upgrade the front and rear bar itself?

I read a lot of good reviews on AM, but I take them with a grain of salt half the time (have you read the reviews on the TB spacer on there?!).

Anyway, should I? Is it worth the coin? I'm a weekend spirited driver but trying to figure out if it's needed, will I feel a huge difference, or should I focus elsewhere?

https://www.americanmuscle.com/srperformance-swaybar-kit-9404.html

I added a Steeda adjustable to the rear. You could adjust at the track as needed if you experienced too much understeer or oversteer. Easy install

 

[Warhorse Racing]

I added a Steeda adjustable to the rear. You could adjust at the track as needed if you experienced too much understeer or oversteer. Easy install

The "How to Adjust Your Autocross Suspension" video I posted in this thread talks about how to use the Steeda Adjustable Rear Sway bar and Adjustable Shocks and Struts to dial in your suspension. Unfortunately, Steeda discontinued the 1STA Adjustable Rear Sway Bar earlier this year.

Personally, I think it's the best bang-for-the-buck suspension mod you can make. I've used it to battle and beat people with coil overs, Panhard Bars and Torque Arms for years.

I encourage anyone who wants a $150 part that makes these cars handle better than cars with rear suspension mods that cost 3-4 times as much to email Steeda at [email protected] and ask them to keep this amazing part in production.