Trick Flow Heads

joe65

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Funny how things go. I watch for TFS heads because i'm hoping to pick up a set for not new cost. so i come across 2 sets this week. Missed the 1st set here in the classifieds. Found another. Really wanting to pick these up. Couldn't find the search option for this Forum. So, just looking to hear from anyone that has used them on their 2v. My plan is just to use them NA to start with a stock pi manifold. Cams, not sure. So many custom cam guys around or even just the trick flow or comp cams.
 

Silver95bird

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Trick flow heads really should be paired with a set of custom cams due to the way the valves sit differently in the heads vs Ford style heads. The valve events aren't timed the same as the OE parts.

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OLD H2S

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Well I was one of the sellers, here is what I have learned running them foe 2000 miles on different engine builds.
The more compression the better in a NA build.
You need custom cams, the offset intake valve mean you lose total power if using a stock style Ford cam.
TF makes custom cams, they are max power per design specs and the smallest IMHO was too much for a DD sitting in traffic. I went with max duration of 236 degrees, I bought from Bullet Cams they are a small company the broke off from CompCams when Comp moved. They are Ford modular specialists, Brian McKenny worked there and he advanced the high compression engine builds several people here have used.
I have gone as high as 14:1 with no problems, I am at 13:1 on build No. 13.
If you do not use a TF design cam you are losing a lot of power and with only 281 CID we need it all. It adds 600.00 to your build, stock lifters and rollers work fine.
The TF intake port is the same diameter as a PI head but they are longer and this is where the port volume increases so to get the same port volume as a TF head you must port the PI heads a lot and that causes problems. Where and how makes a big difference and I sent 40 hours per set of PI heads and had lots of failures hence the 13 engine builds. I am the guy that has to pee on the fence wire to see what it feels like.
I have made good ported heads that failed over time slowly because as a cast product then the walls get thin but still pressure test fine they can weep and slowly hydrolock the cylinder. TF runs a long stock port with a bigger valve and a custom cam and unless you go BIG on a PI head you will not match a TF head for power and at the price in the long run it is cheap. One problem I found is the long tapered valve guide is high flow but easy to brake and they shattered junk bounces back into the manifold and goes to all the cylinders and did in one my engines. How?
When doing your clay check for VtP clearance if the valve gets deflected at all the guid will crack, cam locks help on install to keep the chain jump shock when doing a change.
After all is said and done a TF head change in the car with just head gaskets and new bolts is the fastest and cheapest way to get to 400 crank HP NA on a stock NPI engine.
 
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joe65

joe65

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Trick flow heads really should be paired with a set of custom cams due to the way the valves sit differently in the heads vs Ford style heads. The valve events aren't timed the same as the OE parts.

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Thanks yes im aware of the cams needing to match up. They all make specific tfs cams now. Appreciate the reply.
 
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joe65

joe65

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Well I was one of the sellers, here is what I have learned running them foe 2000 miles on different engine builds.
The more compression the better in a NA build.
You need custom cams, the offset intake valve mean you lose total power if using a stock style Ford cam.
TF makes custom cams, they are max power per design specs and the smallest IMHO was too much for a DD sitting in traffic. I went with max duration of 236 degrees, I bought from Bullet Cams they are a small company the broke off from CompCams when Comp moved. They are Ford modular specialists, Brian McKenny worked there and he advanced the high compression engine builds several people here have used.
I have gone as high as 14:1 with no problems, I am at 13:1 on build No. 13.
If you do not use a TF design cam you are losing a lot of power and with only 281 CID we need it all. It adds 600.00 to your build, stock lifters and rollers work fine.
The TF intake port is the same diameter as a PI head but they are longer and this is where the port volume increases so to get the same port volume as a TF head you must port the PI heads a lot and that causes problems. Where and how makes a big difference and I sent 40 hours per set of PI heads and had lots of failures hence the 13 engine builds. I am the guy that has to pee on the fence wire to see what it feels like.
I have made good ported heads that failed over time slowly because as a cast product then the walls get thin but still pressure test fine they can weep and slowly hydrolock the cylinder. TF runs a long stock port with a bigger valve and a custom cam and unless you go BIG on a PI head you will not match a TF head for power and at the price in the long run it is cheap. One problem I found is the long tapered valve guide is high flow but easy to brake and they shattered junk bounces back into the manifold and goes to all the cylinders and did in one my engines. How?
When doing your clay check for VtP clearance if the valve gets deflected at all the guid will crack, cam locks help on install to keep the chain jump shock when doing a change.
After all is said and done a TF head change in the car with just head gaskets and new bolts is the fastest and cheapest way to get to 400 crank HP NA on a stock NPI engine.

Appreciate the reply. I read a few of your threads regarding your builds. I respect your opinions because of your experience with this exact set up. My plan is to run the tfs heads(38cc) on my stock pi windsor block. Stinks that I missed you selling your last setup it would have worked great for me.
 
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joe65

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Oh but I am curious about something that I can't find an answer to. Are the tfs heads good enough out of the box to not need a valve job? Seems like guys will just slap them on and go. Machine shop guys like to say no dont just do that. Get a valve job and brass guides etc.
 

OLD H2S

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What are you using them for? The fastest why to check valve seats is to run some alcohol down the ports and look for leaking into the chambers.
They are mass produced by Summit Racing.
 
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joe65

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I've seen where guys will turn them upside down and pour liquid on the valves and see if it leaks into the ports. Same concept i guess. What will i be using the heads for? Just a street car. I won't be racing it. Maybe a test and tune night once in a great while at the drag strip. Just want a strong running street car that is fun to drive.
 

OLD H2S

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Then you want the Street Heat heads, they are cheaper. The Track Heart set have the bronze guides and complete cnc work and are max effort.
 

Silver95bird

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Well I was one of the sellers, here is what I have learned running them foe 2000 miles on different engine builds.
The more compression the better in a NA build.
You need custom cams, the offset intake valve mean you lose total power if using a stock style Ford cam.
TF makes custom cams, they are max power per design specs and the smallest IMHO was too much for a DD sitting in traffic. I went with max duration of 236 degrees, I bought from Bullet Cams they are a small company the broke off from CompCams when Comp moved. They are Ford modular specialists, Brian McKenny worked there and he advanced the high compression engine builds several people here have used.
I have gone as high as 14:1 with no problems, I am at 13:1 on build No. 13.
If you do not use a TF design cam you are losing a lot of power and with only 281 CID we need it all. It adds 600.00 to your build, stock lifters and rollers work fine.
The TF intake port is the same diameter as a PI head but they are longer and this is where the port volume increases so to get the same port volume as a TF head you must port the PI heads a lot and that causes problems. Where and how makes a big difference and I sent 40 hours per set of PI heads and had lots of failures hence the 13 engine builds. I am the guy that has to pee on the fence wire to see what it feels like.
I have made good ported heads that failed over time slowly because as a cast product then the walls get thin but still pressure test fine they can weep and slowly hydrolock the cylinder. TF runs a long stock port with a bigger valve and a custom cam and unless you go BIG on a PI head you will not match a TF head for power and at the price in the long run it is cheap. One problem I found is the long tapered valve guide is high flow but easy to brake and they shattered junk bounces back into the manifold and goes to all the cylinders and did in one my engines. How?
When doing your clay check for VtP clearance if the valve gets deflected at all the guid will crack, cam locks help on install to keep the chain jump shock when doing a change.
After all is said and done a TF head change in the car with just head gaskets and new bolts is the fastest and cheapest way to get to 400 crank HP NA on a stock NPI engine.

Was this happening with the bronze guides also, or just the crappy stock ones?

This is why for a street car, its better to stay ~225 * intake lobe. If you go much bigger, especially with PI heads, you can't keep that ICL around the 106-108 window (due to PTV). The added duration gets counteracted somewhat by the cam having to be retarded a few degrees.
Everyone wants to over-cam an engine, just like everyone wanted to put on an oversized carb years ago. You start losing down low for the gains up top.

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Silver95bird

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The TF intake port is the same diameter as a PI head but they are longer and this is where the port volume increases so to get the same port volume as a TF head you must port the PI heads a lot and that causes problems. Where and how makes a big difference and I sent 40 hours per set of PI heads and had lots of failures hence the 13 engine builds. I am the guy that has to pee on the fence wire to see what it feels like.
I have made good ported heads that failed over time slowly because as a cast product then the walls get thin but still pressure test fine they can weep and slowly hydrolock the cylinder. TF runs a long stock port with a bigger valve and a custom cam and unless you go BIG on a PI head you will not match a TF head for power and at the price in the long run it is cheap. One problem I found is the long tapered valve guide is high flow but easy to brake and they shattered junk bounces back into the manifold and goes to all the cylinders and did in one my engines. How?
When doing your clay check for VtP clearance if the valve gets deflected at all the guid will crack, cam locks help on install to keep the chain jump shock when doing a change.
After all is said and done a TF head change in the car with just head gaskets and new bolts is the fastest and cheapest way to get to 400 crank HP NA on a stock NPI engine.

That's really interesting. How much longer from the port face to the seat, say a line strung though the ports dead center? I'd tend to think thats more of a side effect of moving the intake valve, but ive not seen the cross section of how the TF heads are compared to Npi/Pi.
I tend to view this in terms of port length being only the first half of the total intake runner length. Paired with an aftermarket intake I bet it works well.
Runner volume is really only an approximation of average runner area (since that cant be done exactly due to the shape changing).
At least on the NPI heads Ive seen, this is one of the bigger limitations of the 2v head. The heads can be ported, but barely enough to be adequate for stock valves, unless its a max effort porting job. There's just not enough material to port out. The PI heads are a little better in this regard, but not amazingly so.

We've pushed the ford design way past what they designed it to handle. The emissions and mileage goals I believe forced the larger exhaust valves, which forced the smaller intake valves. It makes the exhaust/intake flow ratio like 80%, when pushrod heads like the GT40 heads are around 70%, and extreme heads like Pro Stock are close to 60%. It's also why these cars just love boost, the exhaust doesnt get bound up, and the intake shines with pressure.

What I'm getting at is that the TF heads would need to have a larger average cross section than the Ford heads to be better, and I'd bet thats the case The CCs is really only useful when the length is close to the same. Other than that it's really only good as a before/after.

I'd love to see (total CCs/runner length). That would be more telling.

All just IMO, of course.

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joe65

joe65

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That's really interesting. How much longer from the port face to the seat, say a line strung though the ports dead center? I'd tend to think thats more of a side effect of moving the intake valve, but ive not seen the cross section of how the TF heads are compared to Npi/Pi.
I tend to view this in terms of port length being only the first half of the total intake runner length. Paired with an aftermarket intake I bet it works well.
Runner volume is really only an approximation of average runner area (since that cant be done exactly due to the shape changing).
At least on the NPI heads Ive seen, this is one of the bigger limitations of the 2v head. The heads can be ported, but barely enough to be adequate for stock valves, unless its a max effort porting job. There's just not enough material to port out. The PI heads are a little better in this regard, but not amazingly so.

We've pushed the ford design way past what they designed it to handle. The emissions and mileage goals I believe forced the larger exhaust valves, which forced the smaller intake valves. It makes the exhaust/intake flow ratio like 80%, when pushrod heads like the GT40 heads are around 70%, and extreme heads like Pro Stock are close to 60%. It's also why these cars just love boost, the exhaust doesnt get bound up, and the intake shines with pressure.

What I'm getting at is that the TF heads would need to have a larger average cross section than the Ford heads to be better, and I'd bet thats the case The CCs is really only useful when the length is close to the same. Other than that it's really only good as a before/after.

I'd love to see (total CCs/runner length). That would be more telling.

All just IMO, of course.

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I'm definitely not the expert here but have done lots of reading contacting shops about using ported pi heads vs the tfs and I've been told more than a few times that the tfs just out perform completely worked over PIs. That's tfs in stock form.
 

OLD H2S

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The TF port volume is 180cc and the intake port runner is 2" longer than PI, the valves are bigger and 2 hidden secrets are that the 70 degree taper to the valve seat is over an inch long and cnc cut and 2 little "wings" are on the side of the valve guide on the long side radius curve that is the high speed flow side that collects the liquid fuel that has come out of suspension from Ford pointing the injector pintles on to the port wall to cool the valve. The little wings stop the laminar flow and jump the liquid back into the air stream SO...
On the porting of a PI head going bigger to get to 180cc's of volume, adding bigger valves, taking the 70 degree entrance angle as deep as possible and adding some blockage to the long side radius and you will be close BUT..
The TF design allows more cam lift without PtV interference and cam choice is a big deal when you get to dyne wars.
So this build I did max effort PI heads, flat top pistons, 13:1, 226 cam and we will see the dyne numbers on the 19th, I say 285RWHP.
 
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joe65

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lots of work for below 300rwhp? My stock 03 mach 1 made 286rwhp. I only had a catted x and cat back on it. Ok not completely stock but the little bit bigger exhaust didn't add much.

whats tough to swallow is the price of new tfs heads and all the supporting parts to get them in and running with good stuff. somewhere around $3500 to $4k. so then you start thinking about just boosting the dang thing. i know there's still the stock bottom end that will need work once you start boosting hard at all. its just money, right? lol.
 

Silver95bird

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The TF port volume is 180cc and the intake port runner is 2" longer than PI, the valves are bigger and 2 hidden secrets are that the 70 degree taper to the valve seat is over an inch long and cnc cut and 2 little "wings" are on the side of the valve guide on the long side radius curve that is the high speed flow side that collects the liquid fuel that has come out of suspension from Ford pointing the injector pintles on to the port wall to cool the valve. The little wings stop the laminar flow and jump the liquid back into the air stream SO...
On the porting of a PI head going bigger to get to 180cc's of volume, adding bigger valves, taking the 70 degree entrance angle as deep as possible and adding some blockage to the long side radius and you will be close BUT..
The TF design allows more cam lift without PtV interference and cam choice is a big deal when you get to dyne wars.
So this build I did max effort PI heads, flat top pistons, 13:1, 226 cam and we will see the dyne numbers on the 19th, I say 285RWHP.

Anything over about 1/2" adds a lot of runner length to the intake tract. An aftermarket intake will help a lot, because the stock PI stuff is already bordering on a restriction on more heavily modified cars, and adding length will only hurt.

The taper at the valve is a big plus. The general idea I remember reading was that for every 1" of length, the cross-sectional area should increase by aabout 2%. This counters the friction on the walls of the runner, and keeps the velocity up as air approaches the valve. Thats why the PI intake ports are so huge compared to the valve.

Do the TF valves sit higher in the head, further from the deck?

285 is serious power from a 2v car with Ford heads.

hey blak, think those offset dowels would help more by shifting the head so that the swirl fin was closer to the cyl wall, instead of shifting the head side to side?

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OLD H2S

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Figure out what you can live with. If it is cheap then do it once, me I have time time and tools to play around and there are other forums that have gone through it all since 1996. You will not get more than 1.2 RWHP per cubic inch NA without going to more than a 1996 NPI. TF has been challenged on some of their numbers as not reproducible on a NA engine, but the fastest cheapest way to get there is a stock bottom end and TF street heads with the cam of your choice done in the car with new head gaskets and bolts. If you are not satisfied then you must go bigger CID, variable VT, 4 cams= ridiculous amount of parts or boost. Still comes down to what are you building for, it has all been done. I went as high as 560HP on 3 different Cobra motors = fun but kind of a manic drive just to go to the 7-11.
I'm just saying that for my wife's '96 I should have done TF38's and a cam in the car and left it alone, want something more - buy something more.
 

OLD H2S

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The best stock NPI I have found is 170 RWHP.
My stock Marauder Intec 32 valve was 250 RWHP.
My WAP TF 10:1 with 235 @.570 lift cams was 312 RWHP.
 
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joe65

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good discussion. yeah what the heck do i need 500 hp for around town? Have you guys heard how many Hellcats have been wrecked? I think its been proven that a decently built boosted engine can generate a lot of power now.
 

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hey blak, think those offset dowels would help more by shifting the head so that the swirl fin was closer to the cyl wall, instead of shifting the head side to side?

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To be honest, its anyones guess to what would actually improve hp in the stock head 2v's. 360rwhp is the most ive read about and 320rwhp is the most ive witnessed. However, known proven mathmatics claims almost 500hp with the stock intake valve size. Thats roughly 420rwhp after drivetrain losses. With that said....have at it! You may crack the code to unleashing their potential.

I will state this....figure out the modular valve train and youll have a better grasp at harnessing more power.

Adding, someone had 410rwhp dyno proof of swapped tfs heads on a npi block with tfs cams at Blankenship tuning.

Tfs wouldnt have ponyed the coin for manufacturing 2v heads if their wasnt potential.
 

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