Snakebit said:
Paul said:
Shocker98GT said:
I wouldn't really blame the OHC technology, if anything it is the primary thing making the modular motor competitive with the LS series.
The only motors that make power are reserved for uber-expensive vehicles like the GT500. Joe Ordinary is stuck with 300 hp.
Paul.
What do you call the 03-04 Corba.....its a 500hp street car with a pulley and tune that the ordinary Joe can have, and if we wants to put 3 or 4k in mods hes got a 700hp street car. How about the 5.4 eaton blown modular thats in the Lightning, regular guys can have it and own a 12 second TRUCK for a few hundred bucks in mods.
I call it discontinued. Along with the Lightning. And the GT.
Do you have $50K (plus outrageous dealer markup) for a GT500?
Oh, and you're on crack if you think you can make 700 hp for 3-4K dollars.
Comparing used cars is futile and useless. Throw a nitrous big block in a 81 GT and it will go faster for less money.
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and bet that it is cheaper than swapping two (or four) cams.
It actually isn't. Just the cam itself (nothing but the camshaft itself) will run you $400, and this doesn't include the ideally necessary accompanying pushrods, lifters, springs, and other supporting equipment. Factor in the additional effort to install the cam compared to the mod (we don't HAVE to pull the timing cover if we don't want to) and it really doesn't weigh out to be any more money for us to change our two camshafts. Benefit of OHC technology is that the valvetrain itself does include fewer parts.
The cams are <$400, but that's neither here nor there. It's well over $1000 for 4v cams, and the tools and know-how necessary to time and degree them make it all but impossible for your average weekend warrior. I've seen it done, and I can tell you there is no way in hell I would try it.
2v is cheaper, but still daunting, and they still have valvesprings than can use replacing as do the 4v motors.
LS6 heads flow around 240/180, which is almost exactly the same as the 03-04 Cobra tumbleports. And the 4V heads MURDER the LS1 heads in low lift flow. No telling what they would be capable of on a 4" bore if the head were made to match. Or rephrased-any LSx would see considerable power gains if given an equivalent cylinder head design. Even the 3.7" bore Darton sleeves on a mod motor improve the flow numbers (and horsepower) drastically.
LS7 heads flow around 340-350/220. And of course needs it just to keep up with the massive 427 cu in displacement. A very impressive design. Only drawback is the horrible E/I ratio, which explains the duration of the stock cams being 211 on the intake side and 230 on the exhaust side. Probably the best mod head to compare would be the 2000 Cobra R head which flows around 270/210 (don't have any Ford GT headflow data. Anybody?). Porting any of the 4V heads can result in substantially more than that though.
First off, why no mention of the 2v head? LSx's can be found in joe average car, but 4v cobra motors are not found in joe average mustang. How about some headflow comparisons between 2v/3v motors and LS1/2/6 motors?
Mod motors are plagued with shitty bore sizes, and for the life of me I can't figure out why Ford sticks with it. The sleeving process to obtain the mediocre 3.7 inch bore you speak of is very expensive, and not feasible by the overwhelming majority of enthusiasts. Don't even bother getting into what portwork will do to a 4v head... full-race heads from SHM cost over seven thousand bucks, and FR500 heads are eight thousand. That's goddamn ridiculous.
LS7 heads are obscene. They outflow my $2300 Brodix M2 Track 1 CNC heads on my windsor FROM THE FACTORY, yet the complete motor with titanium rods, dry sump and all can be had for $13K.
I think considering how relatively easy it is to turbo a Terminator motor and achieve 800rwhp out of it, it is most definately a factor. The fact is that you can make power levels that push either block to the bleeding edge on PUMP GAS, which personally I feel renders the displacement irrelevant when you consider that the block and internals are the only things hindering them going any further. There are already Shelby GT500s laying down over 700 at the wheels on pump gas, and while I haven't seen a turbocharged variant yet it will no doubt be even more powerful. Even a stock 3V GT can easily put down 450hp to the tires on pump gas in supercharged form, turbo'd even more, with the stock rods and compression being the limitation, the platform itself is just as capable as any other when built for it. Personally I'd need no more than that 450 at the tires for a street car. And regardless of all the head, camshaft, intake, etc. options on the market for ANY engine, LSx included, you really can't deny the fact that nearly any form of forced induction is going to give you a lot more power for a lot less total money spent.
If it were easy, everyone would do it. But they don't. I know of most of the fast cars here in Valley of the Sun and I know of only 1 turbo 03/04 Cobra. And again, not everyone owns or can afford a Cobra, or GT500.
Although on some levels I agree that forced induction is the cheaper/easier way to make big power, if you want it right now in a car you have to buy a GT500. I am a working professional with a very reasonable salary and I know I can't do that. Can you? Within the first few months of release of the new Z06, people put down over 700rwhp with a cam and nitrous. Same apple, different tree.
Plus, you can slap a blower or nitrous kit on an LSx too.
I do like the LSx platform. I do wish Ford chose a similar direction in regards to displacement (OHC is a step forward IMO). I don't like the fact that GM shoved the LS1 into a car that was built like crap, had horrible ergonomics and looked like it was upholstered in trash bags. Granted the Mustang was no luxury car or marvel in that area itself, but they had far fewer quality issues. No, I can't afford a Corvette.
If Ford built a DOHC 6.0L+ motor with a 4.125" bore, it would annhilate GM. But they don't. Ford's OHC technology has been around for 15 years and still they are plagued with shitty bore and relatively small displacement.
Oh, and Camaros suck shit. I would never own one. However, I
would put an LSx in a Foxbody.
Thanks for the chat BTW. Not often there is someone who actually knows what they are talking about.
:drunk:
Paul.