what is the better engine

Paul

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Ooh, I know - let's start posting pictures of all the fast cars that other people own! :lame:


I bet there aren't even any fast LSx or other pushrod powered cars that other people own too. :rolleyes2:




Oh! Here's my friend Tony's car. It's got pushrods and a blower though, so I bet it probably wouldn't hang with the mighty Sherminator.

Topfuel.jpg
 
S

scarface

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Paul said:
Oh! Here's my friend Tony's car. It's got pushrods and a blower though, so I bet it probably wouldn't hang with the mighty Sherminator.

Topfuel.jpg
HAHA!
 

Shocker98GT

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I wouldn't really blame the OHC technology, if anything it is the primary thing making the modular motor competitive with the LS series. The other factor is the block strength of the modular platform.

The LS series of engines is cheaper to get moderate power levels, but realistically have you ever spent the money on doing JUST a cam swap? It doesn't come cheaply. We aren't in the glory days of the Chevy small block, nor as cheap as any windsor block, etc. for that matter. Though enthusiasts love to think they are.

But ultimately, the cylinder heads have good flow for the size engine in 4V and 3V form, and are capable of massive power output, especially considering the size of the engine. With current turbocharger/supercharger technology on the market and the ability to tune such setups, the real limiting factor to ANY engine on the market realistically boils down to the block strength and the strength of the rotating assembly and of course the transmission and axle this power is being transferred to. If you want an example of this take a look at the Lancer EVOs and the Supras and Skylines of the world. They can't compete in displacement either. Turbo it and it'll make more power than you'd ever need, especially with attention paid to porting the heads, getting efficient cams in place, basically removing all bottlenecks. A stock modular engine block ultimately handles more power than an LS1 block can.
 

Lightning Struck

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Shocker98GT said:
I wouldn't really blame the OHC technology, if anything it is the primary thing making the modular motor competitive with the LS series. The other factor is the block strength of the modular platform.

The LS series of engines is cheaper to get moderate power levels, but realistically have you ever spent the money on doing JUST a cam swap? It doesn't come cheaply. We aren't in the glory days of the Chevy small block, nor as cheap as any windsor block, etc. for that matter. Though enthusiasts love to think they are.

But ultimately, the cylinder heads have good flow for the size engine in 4V and 3V form, and are capable of massive power output, especially considering the size of the engine. With current turbocharger/supercharger technology on the market and the ability to tune such setups, the real limiting factor to ANY engine on the market realistically boils down to the block strength and the strength of the rotating assembly and of course the transmission and axle this power is being transferred to. If you want an example of this take a look at the Lancer EVOs and the Supras and Skylines of the world. They can't compete in displacement either. Turbo it and it'll make more power than you'd ever need, especially with attention paid to porting the heads, getting efficient cams in place, basically removing all bottlenecks. A stock modular engine block ultimately handles more power than an LS1 block can.

Well laid out post O0
 

Paul

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Shocker98GT said:
I wouldn't really blame the OHC technology, if anything it is the primary thing making the modular motor competitive with the LS series.

It isn't competitive with the LSx platform. The only motors that make power are reserved for uber-expensive vehicles like the GT500. Joe Ordinary is stuck with 300 hp.

The other factor is the block strength of the modular platform.

Both blocks can withstand more power than 99.999% of people will ever want or use.

The LS series of engines is cheaper to get moderate power levels, but realistically have you ever spent the money on doing JUST a cam swap? It doesn't come cheaply.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and bet that it is cheaper than swapping two (or four) cams.

But ultimately, the cylinder heads have good flow for the size engine in 4V and 3V form, and are capable of massive power output, especially considering the size of the engine. With current turbocharger/supercharger technology on the market and the ability to tune such setups, the real limiting factor to ANY engine on the market realistically boils down to the block strength and the strength of the rotating assembly and of course the transmission and axle this power is being transferred to.

LSx heads outflow Ford OHC heads. Just FYI. Compare your best Cobra 4V head to an LS7 head and guess which one wins?

If you want an example of this take a look at the Lancer EVOs and the Supras and Skylines of the world. They can't compete in displacement either. Turbo it and it'll make more power than you'd ever need, especially with attention paid to porting the heads, getting efficient cams in place, basically removing all bottlenecks.

This is the most irrelevant part of this post. My friend Trent (founder of Turbomustangs.com) has a Supra with a 72mm (76?) on it. It makes 450 rwhp and runs low 14s. I almost beat it with my near-stock 95 GT. I had him until about 1000'. Peak power means about as much to a streetcar as how many cup holders a Ferrari has.

A stock modular engine block ultimately handles more power than an LS1 block can.

So what? One can withstand almost a thousand horsepower and one can withstand over a thousand horsepower. Wow, that's really important to about a handful of people in the whole country.


Making a moderate amount of horsepower (not a thousand rwhp) cheaply is more important to 99% of car enthusiasts than having a block that can withstand >1000hp.

LSx>OHC Ford

Paul.
 

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Paul said:
Shocker98GT said:
I wouldn't really blame the OHC technology, if anything it is the primary thing making the modular motor competitive with the LS series.

The only motors that make power are reserved for uber-expensive vehicles like the GT500. Joe Ordinary is stuck with 300 hp.


Paul.

What do you call the 03-04 Corba.....its a 500hp street car with a pulley and tune that the ordinary Joe can have, and if we wants to put 3 or 4k in mods hes got a 700hp street car. How about the 5.4 eaton blown modular thats in the Lightning, regular guys can have it and own a 12 second TRUCK for a few hundred bucks in mods.
 

Shocker98GT

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Paul said:
Both blocks can withstand more power than 99.999% of people will ever want or use.

That was one of my points. Both can also MAKE more power than people will ever want or ever use.

Paul said:
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and bet that it is cheaper than swapping two (or four) cams.

It actually isn't. Just the cam itself (nothing but the camshaft itself) will run you $400, and this doesn't include the ideally necessary accompanying pushrods, lifters, springs, and other supporting equipment. Factor in the additional effort to install the cam compared to the mod (we don't HAVE to pull the timing cover if we don't want to) and it really doesn't weigh out to be any more money for us to change our two camshafts. Benefit of OHC technology is that the valvetrain itself does include fewer parts.


Paul said:
LSx heads outflow Ford OHC heads. Just FYI. Compare your best Cobra 4V head to an LS7 head and guess which one wins?

LS6 heads flow around 240/180, which is almost exactly the same as the 03-04 Cobra tumbleports. And the 4V heads MURDER the LS1 heads in low lift flow. No telling what they would be capable of on a 4" bore if the head were made to match. Or rephrased-any LSx would see considerable power gains if given an equivalent cylinder head design. Even the 3.7" bore Darton sleeves on a mod motor improve the flow numbers (and horsepower) drastically.

LS7 heads flow around 340-350/220. And of course needs it just to keep up with the massive 427 cu in displacement. A very impressive design. Only drawback is the horrible E/I ratio, which explains the duration of the stock cams being 211 on the intake side and 230 on the exhaust side. Probably the best mod head to compare would be the 2000 Cobra R head which flows around 270/210 (don't have any Ford GT headflow data. Anybody?). Porting any of the 4V heads can result in substantially more than that though.

Paul said:
So what? One can withstand almost a thousand horsepower and one can withstand over a thousand horsepower. Wow, that's really important to about a handful of people in the whole country.

I think considering how relatively easy it is to turbo a Terminator motor and achieve 800rwhp out of it, it is most definately a factor. The fact is that you can make power levels that push either block to the bleeding edge on PUMP GAS, which personally I feel renders the displacement irrelevant when you consider that the block and internals are the only things hindering them going any further. There are already Shelby GT500s laying down over 700 at the wheels on pump gas, and while I haven't seen a turbocharged variant yet it will no doubt be even more powerful. Even a stock 3V GT can easily put down 450hp to the tires on pump gas in supercharged form, turbo'd even more, with the stock rods and compression being the limitation, the platform itself is just as capable as any other when built for it. Personally I'd need no more than that 450 at the tires for a street car. And regardless of all the head, camshaft, intake, etc. options on the market for ANY engine, LSx included, you really can't deny the fact that nearly any form of forced induction is going to give you a lot more power for a lot less total money spent.

I do like the LSx platform. I do wish Ford chose a similar direction in regards to displacement (OHC is a step forward IMO). I don't like the fact that GM shoved the LS1 into a car that was built like crap, had horrible ergonomics and looked like it was upholstered in trash bags. Granted the Mustang was no luxury car or marvel in that area itself, but they had far fewer quality issues. No, I can't afford a Corvette.
 

Paul

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Snakebit said:
Paul said:
Shocker98GT said:
I wouldn't really blame the OHC technology, if anything it is the primary thing making the modular motor competitive with the LS series.

The only motors that make power are reserved for uber-expensive vehicles like the GT500. Joe Ordinary is stuck with 300 hp.


Paul.

What do you call the 03-04 Corba.....its a 500hp street car with a pulley and tune that the ordinary Joe can have, and if we wants to put 3 or 4k in mods hes got a 700hp street car. How about the 5.4 eaton blown modular thats in the Lightning, regular guys can have it and own a 12 second TRUCK for a few hundred bucks in mods.

I call it discontinued. Along with the Lightning. And the GT.

Do you have $50K (plus outrageous dealer markup) for a GT500?

Oh, and you're on crack if you think you can make 700 hp for 3-4K dollars.

Comparing used cars is futile and useless. Throw a nitrous big block in a 81 GT and it will go faster for less money.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and bet that it is cheaper than swapping two (or four) cams.
It actually isn't. Just the cam itself (nothing but the camshaft itself) will run you $400, and this doesn't include the ideally necessary accompanying pushrods, lifters, springs, and other supporting equipment. Factor in the additional effort to install the cam compared to the mod (we don't HAVE to pull the timing cover if we don't want to) and it really doesn't weigh out to be any more money for us to change our two camshafts. Benefit of OHC technology is that the valvetrain itself does include fewer parts.

The cams are <$400, but that's neither here nor there. It's well over $1000 for 4v cams, and the tools and know-how necessary to time and degree them make it all but impossible for your average weekend warrior. I've seen it done, and I can tell you there is no way in hell I would try it.

2v is cheaper, but still daunting, and they still have valvesprings than can use replacing as do the 4v motors.

LS6 heads flow around 240/180, which is almost exactly the same as the 03-04 Cobra tumbleports. And the 4V heads MURDER the LS1 heads in low lift flow. No telling what they would be capable of on a 4" bore if the head were made to match. Or rephrased-any LSx would see considerable power gains if given an equivalent cylinder head design. Even the 3.7" bore Darton sleeves on a mod motor improve the flow numbers (and horsepower) drastically.

LS7 heads flow around 340-350/220. And of course needs it just to keep up with the massive 427 cu in displacement. A very impressive design. Only drawback is the horrible E/I ratio, which explains the duration of the stock cams being 211 on the intake side and 230 on the exhaust side. Probably the best mod head to compare would be the 2000 Cobra R head which flows around 270/210 (don't have any Ford GT headflow data. Anybody?). Porting any of the 4V heads can result in substantially more than that though.

First off, why no mention of the 2v head? LSx's can be found in joe average car, but 4v cobra motors are not found in joe average mustang. How about some headflow comparisons between 2v/3v motors and LS1/2/6 motors?

Mod motors are plagued with shitty bore sizes, and for the life of me I can't figure out why Ford sticks with it. The sleeving process to obtain the mediocre 3.7 inch bore you speak of is very expensive, and not feasible by the overwhelming majority of enthusiasts. Don't even bother getting into what portwork will do to a 4v head... full-race heads from SHM cost over seven thousand bucks, and FR500 heads are eight thousand. That's goddamn ridiculous.

LS7 heads are obscene. They outflow my $2300 Brodix M2 Track 1 CNC heads on my windsor FROM THE FACTORY, yet the complete motor with titanium rods, dry sump and all can be had for $13K.

I think considering how relatively easy it is to turbo a Terminator motor and achieve 800rwhp out of it, it is most definately a factor. The fact is that you can make power levels that push either block to the bleeding edge on PUMP GAS, which personally I feel renders the displacement irrelevant when you consider that the block and internals are the only things hindering them going any further. There are already Shelby GT500s laying down over 700 at the wheels on pump gas, and while I haven't seen a turbocharged variant yet it will no doubt be even more powerful. Even a stock 3V GT can easily put down 450hp to the tires on pump gas in supercharged form, turbo'd even more, with the stock rods and compression being the limitation, the platform itself is just as capable as any other when built for it. Personally I'd need no more than that 450 at the tires for a street car. And regardless of all the head, camshaft, intake, etc. options on the market for ANY engine, LSx included, you really can't deny the fact that nearly any form of forced induction is going to give you a lot more power for a lot less total money spent.

If it were easy, everyone would do it. But they don't. I know of most of the fast cars here in Valley of the Sun and I know of only 1 turbo 03/04 Cobra. And again, not everyone owns or can afford a Cobra, or GT500.

Although on some levels I agree that forced induction is the cheaper/easier way to make big power, if you want it right now in a car you have to buy a GT500. I am a working professional with a very reasonable salary and I know I can't do that. Can you? Within the first few months of release of the new Z06, people put down over 700rwhp with a cam and nitrous. Same apple, different tree.

Plus, you can slap a blower or nitrous kit on an LSx too.

I do like the LSx platform. I do wish Ford chose a similar direction in regards to displacement (OHC is a step forward IMO). I don't like the fact that GM shoved the LS1 into a car that was built like crap, had horrible ergonomics and looked like it was upholstered in trash bags. Granted the Mustang was no luxury car or marvel in that area itself, but they had far fewer quality issues. No, I can't afford a Corvette.

If Ford built a DOHC 6.0L+ motor with a 4.125" bore, it would annhilate GM. But they don't. Ford's OHC technology has been around for 15 years and still they are plagued with shitty bore and relatively small displacement.

Oh, and Camaros suck shit. I would never own one. However, I would put an LSx in a Foxbody. :)




Thanks for the chat BTW. Not often there is someone who actually knows what they are talking about. :):drunk:

Paul.
 

Shocker98GT

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Paul said:
If Ford built a DOHC 6.0L+ motor with a 4.125" bore, it would annhilate GM.

Isn't that pretty much the definition of the Hurricane engine project they've been throwing around in R&D? :rockyou: Oh I hope they carry through with that, it's been back and forth for a while now
 

Paul

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Shocker98GT said:
Isn't that pretty much the definition of the Hurricane engine project they've been throwing around in R&D? :rockyou: Oh I hope they carry through with that, it's been back and forth for a while now

Funny you should mention it.

A friend of mine has been working in Detroit with Ford. We were just talking about this on a local board yesterday. Apparently the "Boss" motor will be a 6.2L with 4.000" bore and 3.700" stroke or thereabouts, and will of course be fitted with OHC. He said he has seen some flow tests with the cylinder heads flowing over 400 cfm. It is for sure going in a truck (potentially to replace the 6.8L V10) and there are discussions about putting it in a car, possibly a Lincoln.

I think that a DOHC motor fitted with a proper bore and real displacement could exceed 1000rwhp if fitted with the proper internals and enough boost, especially given the numbers posted by the current GT500 crowd. Ford will also need something like this to keep up with GMs rumored blown Corvette with 600+ hp from the factory.

I guess what remains to be seen is if any of this technology will see mainstream, or if it will just be an uber-motor that is limited production, and unavailable to anyone without a fat checkbook and a letter from God.

Paul.

PS - this is not a bullshit story. My friend really has been working at Ford, and he really did tell me this. :)
 

95Grandtouring5.0

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Shocker98GT said:
Paul said:
If Ford built a DOHC 6.0L+ motor with a 4.125" bore, it would annhilate GM.

Isn't that pretty much the definition of the Hurricane engine project they've been throwing around in R&D? :rockyou: Oh I hope they carry through with that, it's been back and forth for a while now


If ford ever built such a motor it would most likely be ONLY in the ford GT and never see a mustang. This is the beauty of general motors. If they come out with a good motor for a corvette, then it would go into a camaro and a trans am and be rated lower. That doesnt really happen now because the camaro and trans am are gone, but it did for the GTO with the ls2 version of the motor. And while everyone is on about a terminator motor being better then a ls1, Lets think of it this way, ford didnt come out with a motor that could top a ls1 f-body till AFTER they stopped making them. Makes you think a bit more that if those cars had been continued they would have an ls2 power plant at the moment, and MAYBE a special model with a ls7 motor.


Edit: I typed this post, before i saw pauls previous post.
 

Paul

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I agree, with 95GT5.0 - Ford does a really shitty job of making great performance available in normal cars.
 

94pacecar435

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maybe GM woulve stuffed a ls2 or maybe ls7 motor into the camaros if they didnt discontinue the car. but the price for something like that woulve been outrageous and the sales woulve sucked just like the GTO.
 

95Grandtouring5.0

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94pacecar435 said:
maybe GM woulve stuffed a ls2 or maybe ls7 motor into the camaros if they didnt discontinue the car. but the price for something like that woulve been outrageous and the sales woulve sucked just like the GTO.

Outrageous? I highly doubt it. If they can make the z06 for a bargain for what it is, then they could do it for the camaro also. Sales suck for the GTO because it just wasn't a stand out good looking car. It just looks like a everyday family car with just 2 doors. I mean they made it a little bit better when they put the ls2 in it and changed the hood and went with dual exhaust, but that was too little too late and plus the fact that General motors has a bad problem of NOT ADVERTISING THEIR SPORTS CARS! Thats why I believe the camaro and trans am really went under, seeing a commercial for them is like seeing a blue moon. They spend all their time advertising other cars, but only once in a great while have a commercial about their sports cars. This is where ford is better, I have seen quite a bit of mustang commercials.
 

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Wow what a thread. Coming from a multiple 5.0 foxes I am very happy with my 4.6. The choices in aftermarket things like your basic bolt ons seem smaller (from my perspective) but so far nothing has really been to much harder to work on.

When I was looking for my sn95 I was not picky if it was a 4.6 or a 5.0. I told myself that if I found the right car since they look the same in almost every aspect except under the hood that I would stick with that. For me it came down to being a Mustang enthusiast and because I like the car I am willing to take the good with the bad. I do not like Camaros so regardless if an LS is better motor for what ever reason I would not own one.

Wouldn't it be easier to throw a B.A. stroked 351 into a Fox vs putting and LS in it? Or is it just as easy???
 

94pacecar435

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ZO6 a bargain you must be smoking crack :hammer: with a base price of 67K for the new zo6 that shit is not a bargain :gtfo:
 

Lightning Struck

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94pacecar435 said:
ZO6 a bargain you must be smoking crack :hammer: with a base price of 67K for the new zo6 that shit is not a bargain :gtfo:
wait until Paul sees that comment :rollinglaugh: :rollinglaugh:
 

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