A little E85??

Daryl

Well-Known Member
SN95 Supporter
Joined
Apr 5, 2020
Messages
2,945
Reaction score
1,415
Location
SoCal
I’m getting/gathering all sorts of info/input regarding being able to put E85 in an “unleaded fuel only” car. Dude at the gas station the other day with a FlexFuel Chev 1500 said he can’t run E85 100% of the time… gotta throw in some unleaded or else… blah blah blah, whatever else he said! My mind went spinning elsewhere! He did mention the extra ZIP that the E85 gets him, so my natural train of thought went to: “if a FlexFuel tolerates (or needs a breather) with unleaded, what about an unleaded car running a bit of E 85 every so often to put a little lead in the pencil?

I’m sure there’s a bunch of red flags, but can we push the envelope or should we stay the heck away from E85 in an unleaded car! (FWIW, I run 89 octane per engine builder recommendation)
 

Chip66

New Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2019
Messages
64
Reaction score
24
Location
Wildwood, MO
You need a tune for that and possibly a bigger fuel pump and injectors.

I don't think the closed-loop fuel trim will keep up with all the additional fuel needed to stay near the stoichiometric air/fuel ratio. As soon as you hit open-loop, you are way lean and will burn pistons.
 
OP
OP
Daryl

Daryl

Well-Known Member
SN95 Supporter
Joined
Apr 5, 2020
Messages
2,945
Reaction score
1,415
Location
SoCal
Good article. I found similar info that got me thinking and was the fuel (no pun intended) to start this thread. But as our Members have pointed out above, without wholesale fuel system swaps….. DON’T DO IT!!
 

shovel

Active Member
Joined
Jan 4, 2023
Messages
254
Reaction score
221
It's not possible to make a material which is insoluble in a low percentage of ethanol (E10, by far the most common fuel in America) and suddenly becomes soluble in a higher concentration of ethanol. Any fuel system material that is chemically compatible with E10 is also chemically compatible with E85.

The three challenges are religion, AFR & electricity.

AFR is easy to understand - ethanol contains oxygen and that's part of the combustion equation.
Petroleum is molecules made of hydrogen and carbon. Ethanol is a molecule made of hydrogen, carbon and oxygen. That's oxygen which gets into your engine without having to pass through the air filter or bring inert nitrogen in with it. That oxygen is why ethanol has fewer BTU's per unit of mass than petroleum and also why an engine will usually make more horsepower on ethanol, but it costs you because you have to supply (and buy) more liquid fuel.

Getting oxygen into the combustion chamber in liquid form means you can burn more total BTU's worth of fuel and air for a given displacement of engine but since that oxygen doesn't bring nitrogen with it like an equivalent amount of air would that means your effective compression ratio is much lower. That's why E85 benefits forced induction or high compression ratio NA engines more than it can benefit lower compression ratio engines.

The electricity part is a little harder to understand - ethanol is able to participate in galvanic corrosion when more than one metal is present in a fuel system even over a distance. This happens extremely slowly with E10 and it happens more quickly with E85. This is never a problem on a daily driven car or a weekend car but if it's something you put away for winter or only drive once every couple months you might experience failures in metal fuel system components. This has nothing to do with water. I drain my lawn mower and pressure washer engines before winter regardless of what fuel they run.

The religion part.. well there's just some people who have feelings about ethanol that will never be changed. Unfortunately that means words like facts and truth don't mean what the dictionary says they mean and outside of a laboratory it's a challenge to have forthright exchanges about this topic. It's better now than it was ten years ago at least.

As for running blends other than E10 in a car built for E10, yes closed loop will trim a little for that over time. You can watch it on an OBD2 gauge (like scangauge, forscan, torque, etc). Several threads on ecomodder.com over the years have indicated that blends like e20 or e25 seem to hit a sweet spot where net MPG increases somewhat over e10. My own expectation is that's going to be massively variable based on the compression ratio of the engine, function of its EGR, net volumetric efficiency.

E85 requires roughly 30% more fuel delivery for the same engine (naturally aspirated) and most vehicles don't have that much spare bandwidth nor will the ECU even try to enrich that much. There are simple E85 kits which install between the ECU and fuel injectors that work about the same way a guitar reverb pedal works, adding a little extra duration to the injector's open cycle. The idea with them is if you can make the ECU trim ~15% leaner on E10 then it only has to trim +15% rich on E85. That still doesn't account for total injector bandwidth so you might still go lean on WOT.

For what it's worth I'd run e25 every mile I drive if that was an option.
 
Last edited:

96blak54

Moderator
Staff
Joined
Feb 21, 2011
Messages
10,063
Reaction score
2,905
Location
In the shop
E85= 85percent ethanol, 15percent low grade gas. The gas is added to improve combustion, ie help ignite the ethanol through crompression destabilization. The volatility of both fuels in an open environment are similar, but the ethanol remains very stable while being compressed where as the gas wants to self ignite.

E85 can run leaner. Its BTU is much lower than gasoline. Engine runs cooler. Add in E85 auto combustion resisitance, higher compression and leaner conditions can be had, depending on engine attributes.
 

cobrajeff96

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 1, 2022
Messages
1,655
Reaction score
1,548
Location
Germany
e85 is hygroscopic and invites water. That's why people running it will never let it sit anywhere inside a car's components for more than a few days, especially in colder/wetter climates and winter months. If they don't, just means they don't know any better or they're lazy, in which case some expensive component swapping inevitably occurs. Expensive mistake, I'd say.

I wouldn't think that a car with older components could hack it with e85 for long. Filter media will be susceptible to breakdown under e85 if it's not microglass. Maybe you can get away with stainless but I'm not sure myself. Pumps, injectors, etc. won't last long unless they're rated for it. If you really want expert knowledge on this, hit up Fore Innovations. They are literally the best. Injector Dynamics/Bosch is also top shelf not just in terms of components but knowledge obviously.
 
OP
OP
Daryl

Daryl

Well-Known Member
SN95 Supporter
Joined
Apr 5, 2020
Messages
2,945
Reaction score
1,415
Location
SoCal
To quote George Bush, “not gonna do it. Wouldn’t be prudent at this juncture “!!…
 

GTamas

Active Member
Joined
Apr 17, 2023
Messages
361
Reaction score
403
Location
Austria
As for running blends other than E10 in a car built for E10
When was E10 introduced in US? Is my 94 designed to run on E10?
Over here we don't have E85 anywhere (afaik) and we had for a long time only E5 in the standard gasoline, which is 95 octane.
Recently by EU-regulation they switched all 95 octane fuel to E10 and you can only buy E5 as premium 98+ octane fuel, which is much more expensive. Stations try to convince people with older cars to tank premium fuel now because "E10 will kill your old fuel system", but I am sceptic. I think if E10 is common in US, I guess it should not hurt my car, right?
 
OP
OP
Daryl

Daryl

Well-Known Member
SN95 Supporter
Joined
Apr 5, 2020
Messages
2,945
Reaction score
1,415
Location
SoCal
E10 is 87 octane in the U.S.
It’s been around a minute or two ;-)
 

cobrajeff96

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 1, 2022
Messages
1,655
Reaction score
1,548
Location
Germany
It's fine. Yes, there will be a slight deterioration but that's over a long length of time. Probably 'the life of the car' as they say.
 

shovel

Active Member
Joined
Jan 4, 2023
Messages
254
Reaction score
221
When was E10 introduced in US? Is my 94 designed to run on E10?
In a way it was always here, but early hoses and gaskets made of natural latex rubber would deteriorate from it. Natural rubber has not existed in production cars in half a century but that doesn't stop people repeating their grandfather's cautions.
Formal adoption began for real in 1978 and by about 1990 it was pretty much the standard fuel for gasoline cars in most US states.
I think if E10 is common in US, I guess it should not hurt my car, right?
To say it is common in the US is an understatement, in my city there might be 500 gas stations and maybe 30 of them sell non-ethanol fuel from one or two pumps, which I assume is mostly sold for small engines like chainsaws and lawn mowers and a very small demographic of people who have feelings about ethanol that are not supported by scientific rigor.

If you show me any daily driven car made in the last 40 years which was damaged by E10 or E15 in any way I will eat that car with mustard and mayonnaise.
 

Musturd

Post Whore
Joined
Feb 12, 2011
Messages
10,529
Reaction score
2,309
98 saleen did a test and put 30% bigger injectors and a better pump in his fox no tuning at all the stock ecu compensated for the e85
 

ju015dd

Well-Known Member
SN95 Supporter
Joined
Sep 30, 2006
Messages
4,247
Reaction score
1,809
Location
tallahassee, fl
In a way it was always here, but early hoses and gaskets made of natural latex rubber would deteriorate from it. Natural rubber has not existed in production cars in half a century but that doesn't stop people repeating their grandfather's cautions.
Formal adoption began for real in 1978 and by about 1990 it was pretty much the standard fuel for gasoline cars in most US states.

To say it is common in the US is an understatement, in my city there might be 500 gas stations and maybe 30 of them sell non-ethanol fuel from one or two pumps, which I assume is mostly sold for small engines like chainsaws and lawn mowers and a very small demographic of people who have feelings about ethanol that are not supported by scientific rigor.

If you show me any daily driven car made in the last 40 years which was damaged by E10 or E15 in any way I will eat that car with mustard and mayonnaise.
Maybe I missed it but you see to to have quit a bit of knowledge on corn fuel. What real purpose does it have? Don't forget about boats and such. Basically don't run shit ethanol fuel in anything that doesn't pretty much get run everyday.
 

shovel

Active Member
Joined
Jan 4, 2023
Messages
254
Reaction score
221
Maybe I missed it but you see to to have quit a bit of knowledge on corn fuel. What real purpose does it have? Don't forget about boats and such. Basically don't run shit ethanol fuel in anything that doesn't pretty much get run everyday.

Ethanol in gasoline works as a line drier so that any water contamination that gets mixed in with the fuel doesn't separate out and cause frost (expansion) damage or arrive at the carburetor or injector in whole "bubbles" that cause rough running or no running conditions. It burns more completely in the combustion chamber than pure petroleum so soot on the valves and oxygen sensor is reduced, and the consistent burning also allows combustion temperature to be regulated better which makes exhaust valve guide seals last longer and delay oil burning, and also reduces NOx emissions because high combustion temperatures tie up more oxygen atoms with nitrogen atoms.

Nitrogen oxides reduce your sense of smell (for a long time, not just during immediate exposure) and make you more susceptible to respiratory infection. They also damage plant cells which reduces crop yields. So the inclusion of an oxygenator in motor fuel along with other "emissions crap" makes us healthier and wealthier and better fed if any of that matters to you. It also pays American farmers and since the meat and dairy industries would be impossible in their current state without dried grains, fuel ethanol provides a sales channel for the liquid byproduct of DDG production. In other words bacon would cost a lot more if your gas tank wasn't eating the same ear of corn the pig ate. The same acre of corn that feeds pigs and your gas tank also produces hundreds of enzyme products (detergents, surfactants, etc) as well as waxes, shellac and lipid products (fake leather, skin care products) and packaging products (cardboard notably). Those products are all interconnected economically so if the ethanol wasn't sold as fuel all the other things would go up in price.

None of that is its main purpose though. The main reason for ethanol fuel is to make people argue on the internet.
 

ju015dd

Well-Known Member
SN95 Supporter
Joined
Sep 30, 2006
Messages
4,247
Reaction score
1,809
Location
tallahassee, fl
Ethanol in gasoline works as a line drier so that any water contamination that gets mixed in with the fuel doesn't separate out and cause frost (expansion) damage or arrive at the carburetor or injector in whole "bubbles" that cause rough running or no running conditions. It burns more completely in the combustion chamber than pure petroleum so soot on the valves and oxygen sensor is reduced, and the consistent burning also allows combustion temperature to be regulated better which makes exhaust valve guide seals last longer and delay oil burning, and also reduces NOx emissions because high combustion temperatures tie up more oxygen atoms with nitrogen atoms.

Nitrogen oxides reduce your sense of smell (for a long time, not just during immediate exposure) and make you more susceptible to respiratory infection. They also damage plant cells which reduces crop yields. So the inclusion of an oxygenator in motor fuel along with other "emissions crap" makes us healthier and wealthier and better fed if any of that matters to you. It also pays American farmers and since the meat and dairy industries would be impossible in their current state without dried grains, fuel ethanol provides a sales channel for the liquid byproduct of DDG production. In other words bacon would cost a lot more if your gas tank wasn't eating the same ear of corn the pig ate. The same acre of corn that feeds pigs and your gas tank also produces hundreds of enzyme products (detergents, surfactants, etc) as well as waxes, shellac and lipid products (fake leather, skin care products) and packaging products (cardboard notably). Those products are all interconnected economically so if the ethanol wasn't sold as fuel all the other things would go up in price.

None of that is its main purpose though. The main reason for ethanol fuel is to make people argue on the internet.
So what make it horrible for small engines and boats? And are you a climate change guy?
 

shovel

Active Member
Joined
Jan 4, 2023
Messages
254
Reaction score
221
So what make it horrible for small engines and boats? And are you a climate change guy?

It has no negative effect on small engines, since it's the most common fuel their customers can buy any power equipment manufacturer would be crazy to build their product to not use the fuel that's available.

If you live in a humid environment and let ethanol sit in one place (like the bowl of a carburetor) for a long time it will form a chemical battery between dissimilar metals it is in contact with (zinc plated steel carb bowl + cast aluminum carb body + high carbon steel float spring.. etc) and cause them to corrode. This doesn't happen to any meaningful degree on engines of any size that are run regularly. Drain your lawn mower before winter.

The boat thing... I swear that's like the engines need backpressure story that just floats around forever. On boats which have a fuel water separator (mostly this would be boats that live on the water, not so much boats you tow home behind a Jeep Cherokee) the separator relies on fuel and water not wanting to mix and if your fuel has alcohol in it then the separator can't work and I understand some separators can be damaged this way. Once your alcohol is fully saturated.. like for example a gallon of water gets into your 20 gallon tank then the motor is gonna run really poorly until you can get some dry gas in it to dilute that out.

I'm an engineer professionally and a wrench turner recreationally. I don't know what you mean by "a climate change guy".
 

Musturd

Post Whore
Joined
Feb 12, 2011
Messages
10,529
Reaction score
2,309
So what make it horrible for small engines and boats? And are you a climate change guy?
It gums up carburetor and you need to take it apart and clean it usually after winter . I’ve luckily got away with it the last couple years all my shit still starts first or second pull . I was worried with my Canam renegade 1000 when I checked the tank it smelt heavily of ethanol , I thought maybe someone grabbed a tank of E and put it in my quad . Luckily I was able to get it running .
 

duh09

Legend
SN95 Supporter
Joined
Apr 23, 2008
Messages
9,562
Reaction score
617
Location
Memphis-ish
It gums up carburetor and you need to take it apart and clean it usually after winter . I’ve luckily got away with it the last couple years all my shit still starts first or second pull . I was worried with my Canam renegade 1000 when I checked the tank it smelt heavily of ethanol , I thought maybe someone grabbed a tank of E and put it in my quad . Luckily I was able to get it running .


The way modern fuel with ethanol seems to gum is wild.
 

Musturd

Post Whore
Joined
Feb 12, 2011
Messages
10,529
Reaction score
2,309
The way modern fuel with ethanol seems to gum is wild.
I try not to let anything sit for long periods of time and I’ve been okay . I love e85 for my red car .
 

Latest posts

Forum statistics

Threads
77,544
Messages
1,504,668
Members
15,008
Latest member
stillridin
Top