The Great Boost Discussion Thread - GOOD INFO INSIDE!!!

[modo]

Re: In Response to Javi's Post....

hey now. lets not get too hostile... civil debate will gain more ground/credibility than aggressive (sp?) arguments. lol.



It seems the topic of IATs is coming into play with questioning:
will N2O or Meth cool the air charge more effectively?

Also, i think the basics of how N2O vs. Meth works.
Is the Meth actually "combustable"? is it like an afterburner on a jet? Is that how the power is gained? or is it simply a non-combustable that cools the aircharge to add power?

Is N2O a "combustable?" or is it an extra substance to change the chemical-structure of the fuel?? ya know? how does all this stuff work?

are we comparing apples and oranges here?

that would have to be another discussion as there is a lot involved but

nitrous itself is not flammable. when it breaks down via atmospheric pressure and heat in the intake manifold it is essentially oxygen which can be burned. it does cool the inlet charge as well but you NEED to increase fuel into the combustion chamber to make up for the additional oxygen.

methanol will burn if it is 100% meth. since meth injection setups are a mix or water / meth it will not burn outside of the combustion chamber. the water will flash evaporate which causes the drastic cooling of the combustion temps and alcohol burns a lot cooler... the leftover meth is what increase the octane and burns as a fuel. that is why when you spray meth/water your air/fuel ratio will go richer.

the water evaporating has great detonation suppression which is another added benefit.

that is a quick and crude answer

 

[95PGTTech]

Re: In Response to Javi's Post....

how is using meth over complicating anything. it is NOT a power adder.

you can add a front mount intercooler but that won't even get the temps at ambient and it does nothing to raise octane.

money is a factor...

i use to run c-16 in my car which the last time i bought it was 11.25 a gallon. even with the race gas on a summer day my iat datalogs were around 170-200. hotter temps = less power

take your nitrous example into play, 60 bucks to fill the tank. once cruise on the weekend that tank is empty and i have to add more fuel since the nitrous will change my ve tables

thats 195 bucks to take the car out for a couple hours


now lets use 50/50 water & meth

can use pump gas 2-3 bucks here, costs me 1.50ish a gallon for the meth mixture

the car makes more power with the same tune simply because the iat are lower and the air charge is more dense


its not more complicated, its wiser and safer

according to most sanctioning race organizations, meth falls under chemical intercooling, which is a power adder. so if you have a vortech+FMIC+meth car, you're in a 3 power adder class.

again, money is irrelevant to what even at our level we have in our cars.

about your tuning, you always get retuned when you add meth, it drastically changes the tune. lower iats = denser air charge = more air delivered = leaner on the same tune. you still need to add more fuel just like nitrous.

it's no safer than nitrous. both are very easy to use and safe if used correctly. both will blow up pretty easy if used incorrectly.


methanol is a form of alcohol, so it's primary purpose is lowering IATs, but it does burn during the combustion process. nitrous has extra oxygen in the nitrous molecule. so you could think of it like "super air". as opposed to methanol as a alternative fuel. yes, it's oranges to apples, but it's as close as it gets in the car world.

 

[MustangChris]

Re: In Response to Javi's Post....

gotcha.


thanks fellas. not bad for a drop-in-the-bucket info thread. lol

 

[modo]

Re: In Response to Javi's Post....

how is using meth over complicating anything. it is NOT a power adder.

you can add a front mount intercooler but that won't even get the temps at ambient and it does nothing to raise octane.

money is a factor...

i use to run c-16 in my car which the last time i bought it was 11.25 a gallon. even with the race gas on a summer day my iat datalogs were around 170-200. hotter temps = less power

take your nitrous example into play, 60 bucks to fill the tank. once cruise on the weekend that tank is empty and i have to add more fuel since the nitrous will change my ve tables

thats 195 bucks to take the car out for a couple hours


now lets use 50/50 water & meth

can use pump gas 2-3 bucks here, costs me 1.50ish a gallon for the meth mixture

the car makes more power with the same tune simply because the iat are lower and the air charge is more dense


its not more complicated, its wiser and safer

according to most sanctioning race organizations, meth falls under chemical intercooling, which is a power adder. so if you have a vortech+FMIC+meth car, you're in a 3 power adder class.

again, money is irrelevant to what even at our level we have in our cars.

about your tuning, you always get retuned when you add meth, it drastically changes the tune. lower iats = denser air charge = more air delivered = leaner on the same tune. you still need to add more fuel just like nitrous.

it's no safer than nitrous. both are very easy to use and safe if used correctly. both will blow up pretty easy if used incorrectly.


methanol is a form of alcohol, so it's primary purpose is lowering IATs, but it does burn during the combustion process. nitrous has extra oxygen in the nitrous molecule. so you could think of it like "super air". as opposed to methanol as a alternative fuel. yes, it's oranges to apples, but it's as close as it gets in the car world.

im sorry i didn't know we all had to follow a rule book. you can call it what you want but if you were to install a meth kit on your car without taking advantage of it it would slow down and not blow the motor up. can you say the same for nitrous, blower or turbo? no you can't

you do not have to add fuel when you spray meth. you usually have to take it out or just leave it where it is. have you ever tuned a car with meth? i'd say no with the statement above.

meth injection has TWO purposes, lowers intake temps and adds OCTANE

 

[Hellion94]

Re: In Response to Javi's Post....

Wow i thought this thread had died.

Water/Methanol vs. Nitrous is really not a heads up comparison. Nitrous oxide is purely a power adder, it does so by making the air incredibly dense, allowing for more fuel to be added, and therefor increasing power by increasing the amount of combustion in the cylinders and creatin much higher cylinder pressures and temperatures, But Nitrous itself does not burn. When you add nitrous to an engine, you aren't burning the nitrous as much as you are super-cooling the air in the cylinder, making it VERY dense. Case in point - that's why you have to have a fuel nozzle as well as a nitrous nozzle, because you need to burn the fuel, the nitrous doesn't burn and without additional fuel an extreme lean condition would occur.

Water/Meth operates in a totally different manner. There are 3 major benefits to water/meth. A. It cools the intake charge by 60-120 degrees on average, B. It will add as much as 20 points of octane to whatever fuel you are burning, C. (according to snow) The water turns to steam in the combusion chamber, effectively steam cleaning your valves and combustion chamber. Now a water/meth system on a N/A engine will add a small amount of power (5-7%), but the real advantage is what it allows you to do with tuning. If you utilize the water/meth as a tuning element, you can add substantial amounts of power over just pump gas. You can run more aggressive timing curves and more boost if you have a poweradder, that's where the big gains with water/meth are realized. Also, the methanol will burn (that's what adds the octane points) and can, in some cases, be used as an additional source of fuel (We have done this before at Hellion), although it's really not a good idea to do that.

Also, Chris you had mentioned earlier that Nitrous on top of a turbo will effectively spool it faster like a bike going downhill, that's sort of true, but it's not as iff the nitrous is spraying on the turbo itself, helping it spin (which really wouldn't do anything). What it does is increase cylinder pressure and cylinder temperature, the factors that just happen to be the deciding factor in how fast a turbo spools. Turbo's don't rely on purely airflow to spool them, i.e. you can put an ENORMOUS fan on a turbo, and it won't spin very fast at all, but put compressed air through it, and it'll spin much faster. Pressure, Velocity, and Heat are the 3 factors that determine turbo spool time. This is why when there's more load on an engine, a turbo spools faster, because the greater load brings with it higher cylinder temps and more cylinder pressure.

Also, compound systems, when properly setup and and researched can make enormous amounts of power, more than comparably sized twin or single setups. But, and it's a big BUT, they will NEVER make more PEAK power. I'll say that again, NEVER MORE PEAK POWER. They make LOADS more average power, but will usually not make more peak power than a turbo alone (comparably sized, obviously)

Here's proof. This is Tony Alm form Florida, compound Gt500

 

[modo]

Re: In Response to Javi's Post....

Wow i thought this thread had died.

Water/Methanol vs. Nitrous is really not a heads up comparison. Nitrous oxide is purely a power adder, it does so by making the air incredibly dense, allowing for more fuel to be added, and therefor increasing power by increasing the amount of combustion in the cylinders and creatin much higher cylinder pressures and temperatures, But Nitrous itself does not burn. When you add nitrous to an engine, you aren't burning the nitrous as much as you are super-cooling the air in the cylinder, making it VERY dense. Case in point - that's why you have to have a fuel nozzle as well as a nitrous nozzle, because you need to burn the fuel, the nitrous doesn't burn and without additional fuel an extreme lean condition would occur.

Water/Meth operates in a totally different manner. There are 3 major benefits to water/meth. A. It cools the intake charge by 60-120 degrees on average, B. It will add as much as 20 points of octane to whatever fuel you are burning, C. (according to snow) The water turns to steam in the combusion chamber, effectively steam cleaning your valves and combustion chamber. Now a water/meth system on a N/A engine will add a small amount of power (5-7%), but the real advantage is what it allows you to do with tuning. If you utilize the water/meth as a tuning element, you can add substantial amounts of power over just pump gas. You can run more aggressive timing curves and more boost if you have a poweradder, that's where the big gains with water/meth are realized.

Also, Chris you had mentioned earlier that Nitrous on top of a turbo will effectively spool it faster like a bike going downhill, that's sort of true, but it's not as iff the nitrous is spraying on the turbo itself, helping it spin (which really wouldn't do anything). What it does is increase cylinder pressure and cylinder temperature, the factors that just happen to be the deciding factor in how fast a turbo spools. Turbo's don't rely on purely airflow to spool them, i.e. you can put an ENORMOUS fan on a turbo, and it won't spin very fast at all, but put compressed air through it, and it'll spin much faster. Pressure, Velocity, and Heat are the 3 factors that determine turbo spool time. This is why when there's more load on an engine, a turbo spools faster, because the greater load brings with it higher cylinder temps and more cylinder pressure.

Also, compound systems, when properly setup and and researched can make enormous amounts of power, more than comparably sized twin or single setups. But, and it's a big BUT, they will NEVER make more PEAK power. I'll say that again, NEVER MORE PEAK POWER. They make LOADS more average power, but will usually not make more peak power than a turbo alone (comparably sized, obviously)

Here's proof. This is Tony Alm form Florida, compound Gt500

other ways to spool a turbo like alot of timing retard on a two step, its free

 

[MustangChris]

Re: In Response to Javi's Post....

hellion, we were speaking of direct-N2O injection into the turbo itself when i made that comment. and you should write into modified magazine and set them straight. i was reading what i posted roughly a year and a half ago.

anyways, great info hellion, how does cylinder pressure effect turbo spoolage (its a word, i just made it up.) ? Are you speaking of compression ratio?

so theorectically speaking:
a 8:1 "set at" 25 psi will spool slower than an 8.5:1 @ the same settings?

 

[MustangChris]

Re: In Response to Javi's Post....

also, i dont let threads die.... i just let them rest until i feel like whoring them up again.

 

[Hellion94]

Re: In Response to Javi's Post....

hellion, we were speaking of direct-N2O injection into the turbo itself when i made that comment. and you should write into modified magazine and set them straight. i was reading what i posted roughly a year and a half ago.

anyways, great info hellion, how does cylinder pressure effect turbo spoolage (its a word, i just made it up.) ? Are you speaking of compression ratio?

so theorectically speaking:
a 8:1 "set at" 25 psi will spool slower than an 8.5:1 @ the same settings?

Haha, sorry I didn't mean it as an attack. Some people may spray it directly onto a turbo's compressor wheel, but it really isn't going to do a lot. Nitrous is under a ton of pressure, but it's a pretty thin gas when it escapes into the atmosphere, so it may help, but I would say that it's going to be pretty minimal.

Modo - You are absolutely correct about the timing. It actually causes exactly what I was talking about. Chris, this should also answer your question:

Ok so cylinder pressure is the amount of pressure that occurs during combustion. A static compression ratio is the amount that air is compressed in the cylinder, and is the base for cylinder pressure, but they aren't tied together directly. So, basically, a large explosion creates more pressure and force than a small explosion, correct? So the bigger explosion you can create, the more force you can transfer down onto the piston, and the more rapidly the air will exit the chamber. It's like setting off an M-80 in a stadium, or 20 lbs. of C4 in a porta-potty.

So take that same theory and apply it to the turbine wheel of a turbo, the harder we can hit it, the faster it will accelerate, and the faster the turbo spools. What Modo said does that, but takes it a step further. Basically, instead of having that explosion happen in the combustion chamber, and then just feeding the byproduct to the turbo, we move that explosion into the exhaust by retarding the timing. Then the explosion happens even closer to the turbo, and even more force is applied. This is all the popping and banging you see Turbocharged racecars doing at the dragstrip.

Also, final psi has nothing to do with spool time. Turbos will spin as fast as they can possibly spin, and accelerate at the fastest rate possible. The wastegate will then limit the pressure that goes to the turbine wheel by venting it to atmosphere, thus limiting the acceleration of the turbo, preventing it from generating any more boost.

 

[MustangChris]

Re: In Response to Javi's Post....

no, i understand, and i didnt take it as an attack. i just wanted to clearify my possition, thats all.

i understand much more completely now. thank you

i dont know what more to ask...

you guys ahve given good sources for basic information on turbos and power adders. any suggestions on meth or N2o for reading?

 

[modo]

Re: In Response to Javi's Post....

no, i understand, and i didnt imply it as an attack. i just wanted to clearify my possition, thats all.

i understand much more completely now. thank you

i dont know what more to ask...

you guys ahve given good sources for basic information on turbos and power adders. any suggestions on meth or N2o for reading?

http://www.alcoholinjectionsystems.com/a11/116+-Octane-With-Water-Injection!/article_info.html

 

[MustangChris]

Re: In Response to Javi's Post....

thanks. ill tear into that on my airplane flight.

 

[Hellion94]

Re: In Response to Javi's Post....

Chris - I should also mention that cylinder pressure can be increased by advancing timing also. That's why bumping the timing on a stock 5.0L or any other engine will increase power. When you advance the timing the explosion in the cylinder happens earlier in the compression stroke, so basically the explosion occurs and then is compressed further by the compression stroke of the piston, creating a higher pressure.

 

[OnyxCobra]

Re: In Response to Javi's Post....

man Idk about you guys but this is getting me pretty excited to install my meth kit lol

 

[KB98GT]

Re: In Response to Javi's Post....

man Idk about you guys but this is getting me pretty excited to install my meth kit lol

where are you going to spray? into the lower intake or before the blower? i have heard good and bad about spraying before the blower with a KB setup.

 

[MustangChris]

thanks hellion.

also, what are the good and bad about meth before/after the KB?

 

[modo]

thanks hellion.

also, what are the good and bad about meth before/after the KB?

http://www.alcoholinjectionsystems.com/a40/Where-Do-I-Position-My-Water-Methanol-Injection-Nozzles/article_info.html

 

[MustangChris]

thanks all

 

[OnyxCobra]

man Idk about you guys but this is getting me pretty excited to install my meth kit lol

where are you going to spray? into the lower intake or before the blower? i have heard good and bad about spraying before the blower with a KB setup.

It's going to be spraying into the discharge manifold of the blower. The blower is already drilled there for the meth so instead of making another hole in it somewhere else I'm going to be using that location. It should work out pretty well, they say you can run it through the blower to help cool it but like i said it's already drilled just after the blower.

I also relocated my IAT sensor to my lower intake manifold so it'll be getting an accurate reading of the air temperature, since the stock location would be giving a reading WAY off since the blower will be heating the air so much.

 

[KB98GT]

man Idk about you guys but this is getting me pretty excited to install my meth kit lol

where are you going to spray? into the lower intake or before the blower? i have heard good and bad about spraying before the blower with a KB setup.

It's going to be spraying into the discharge manifold of the blower. The blower is already drilled there for the meth so instead of making another hole in it somewhere else I'm going to be using that location. It should work out pretty well, they say you can run it through the blower to help cool it but like i said it's already drilled just after the blower.

I also relocated my IAT sensor to my lower intake manifold so it'll be getting an accurate reading of the air temperature, since the stock location would be giving a reading WAY off since the blower will be heating the air so much.

There is a great discussion about using meth over at Modularfords here is the link..
http://www.modularfords.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153515