Radiator ducting and aero...

[ttocs]

A lot of race cars don't run fans at all since they are always moving. So that's no-bueno on the street.

Again, this is all way too much for the street. But then again there are cars with $10,000 suspensions that only get driven to Dairy Queen.

YOU DON'T LIKE BLIZZARDS?

 

[DavidBoren]

Tyler, no. This is me seeing if any SN95 owners have already done what I want to do to your car.

I have read a lot, too much maybe, about radiator ducts, and I am convinced that there is no downside to such a mod.

Cost is moot considering that everyone and their brother is willing to spend upwards of $300 on a cold air intake that ultimately does little to no good, and you can pick up everything you would need to duct your radiator at Home Depot for far less than that.

Like I said, the system I am talking about still utilizes the radiator fans. This is inspired by what racecars have, it is not a full on racecar radiator set-up.

Racecars are built feom the ground up. They can iincorporate a properly designed duct system from the start. Retrofitting ducts to a factory car brings with it a lot of space constraints, since it was not designed into the car from the beginning.

There are technical dimensions that offer the best results when it comes to shape and size of the ducts and openings. However, even making an effort to get close to those dimensions and ratios, yet working with the space available in a factory car, still offers great benefits... even on a daily driver.

My only concern with adding radiator ducts and the hood vent with a belly pan under the engine compartment is the massive amount of front downforce taking traction off the rear axle. So the rear end will have to be upgraded at the same time as this.

 

[ba#97]

Tyler, no. This is me seeing if any SN95 owners have already done what I want to do to your car.

I have read a lot, too much maybe, about radiator ducts, and I am convinced that there is no downside to such a mod.

Cost is moot considering that everyone and their brother is willing to spend upwards of $300 on a cold air intake that ultimately does little to no good, and you can pick up everything you would need to duct your radiator at Home Depot for far less than that.

Like I said, the system I am talking about still utilizes the radiator fans. This is inspired by what racecars have, it is not a full on racecar radiator set-up.

Racecars are built feom the ground up. They can iincorporate a properly designed duct system from the start. Retrofitting ducts to a factory car brings with it a lot of space constraints, since it was not designed into the car from the beginning.

There are technical dimensions that offer the best results when it comes to shape and size of the ducts and openings. However, even making an effort to get close to those dimensions and ratios, yet working with the space available in a factory car, still offers great benefits... even on a daily driver.

My only concern with adding radiator ducts and the hood vent with a belly pan under the engine compartment is the massive amount of front downforce taking traction off the rear axle. So the rear end will have to be upgraded at the same time as this.

are we still talking a street car here? because even at highway speeds the ducting and plans you're talking about won't produce 'massive amounts of front downforce'. not all racecars are built from the ground up either. I mean unless you're talking nascar or something. but when it comes to those of us amateur racers, most of us are building on a platform made for the street. not building it from the ground up.

I'm not going to tell you that you shouldn't do this for a street car, but I will say that other than the very....very minimal positives you have mentioned that you would get from boxing your radiator on just a street driven car....I pose the question....what's the point? you made the point yourself about people buying $300 'useless' cai's, so....other than a very minimal increase in fuel mileage, and a very minimal (and unnecessary) boost in cooling for a regular daily driven stang, why not spend that money on something more useful or fun to toss on the car? it just seems silly to me that you'd put so much time and effort into this when you aren't talking a track car where you really are straining the temps on the car. I mean it's your money, so it's your deal. just my .02

 

[DavidBoren]

Yes, I am talking about applying this (these) concepts to a street driven car. And I am not saying that it is an end-all mod that will give you the best, most noticeable results ever.

I do not see why anyone who is even semi-serious about modding their car wouldn't do this, though. If the large majority of your front end lift comes from air in the engine bay exiting under the vehicle, then why wouldn't you go to Home Depot and make a belly pan? The hot turbulent air under your car also contributes to a large portion of the vehicle's drag.

In my opinion, buying the relatively cheap materials and putting in the time to build the belly pan and the radiator ducts is a small price to pay for a modification that has no bad side effects.

Granted, I already really like the heat extraction style hood. So I wasn't considering the cost of a new hood when I said this is a cheap mod. You can add the GT500 hood vent to a factory hood for cheap, though.

All in all, everything I have posted on this subject is just stuff I have read. I was asking if anyone has done this to their SN95, to confirm or disprove what I have been reading. It's really just a discussion of theory until someone with real experience with radiator ducts and heat extraction hood vents and belly pans can chime in with their results.

 

[ba#97]

it has been done to many an sn95. it is a very useful mod, but mainly useful to track dedicated cars that need the extra cooling and can ultimately benefit from the extra downforce provided by an undertray and splitter setup. I did say undertray and splitter....because even though having an extraction type hood and a boxed radiator setup would ultimately relieve some harmful turbulence under the hood, they won't produce these large amounts of downforce you speak of. not without a splitter that extends far enough back to be an undertray as well, and on a street car, at normal highway speeds or less....you aren't going to notice the difference at that point anyways when it comes to downforce.

I'm definitely not saying that something like I described above would be useless.....see autocross and the benefits of aerodynamic goodies on cars at these lower speeds and you'll see they do work very well. but it brings me back to the fact that when you talk about boxing your radiator for your street car and installing a belly pan, ultimately you may see your temps a little lower on the gauge, but other than that, I don't see the point in putting in the effort without a bigger picture in mind. then once you start throwing splitters etc etc on your daily driver street car to aid your downforce (for whatever reason), you can basically kiss your minimal gas mileage gain goodbye due to increased drag.

 

[DavidBoren]

I guess I should have had a more concise goal when bringing this up. As Voltaire once said, define your terms. I need to better express what it is I am trying to learn more about.

You said that the downforce wouldn't be noticeable until higher speeds with just the undertray and hood vent(s). But adding a chin splitter to this equation does give you downforce even at low(er) speeds. Is the drag produced by the chin splitter more than the drag reduced by the undertray?

I am honestly just trying to get as many opinions and as much information about this as possible. The intent is not to increase gas mileage. And I am not addressing a problem, the factory cooling system is plenty adequate, and there is no real need to add downforce or traction up front at this point. I am just gathering information about a topic I have recently found intriguing.

 

[D3VST8R96GT]

....... As Voltaire once said........

Pump the brakes this is a mustang forum

 

[wmfateam]

Got the car up on the lift today to take some measurements while I was trying to re-install the side skirts, and I am going to try and angle the radiator down(top leaning forward). I do not have the condenser anymore and I might be able to tilt is under the core support. Then get some new radiator hoses that I can make go around the chimney that will be attached to the back of the radiator. May have to do the COP conversion to free up some space via the coils. We will see. A coworker has a 347 SN95 that is not running very cool at all on track and he is contemplating this as well. May be time to go to the junkyard for test hoods : )

 

[ba#97]

I guess I should have had a more concise goal when bringing this up. As Voltaire once said, define your terms. I need to better express what it is I am trying to learn more about.

You said that the downforce wouldn't be noticeable until higher speeds with just the undertray and hood vent(s). But adding a chin splitter to this equation does give you downforce even at low(er) speeds. Is the drag produced by the chin splitter more than the drag reduced by the undertray?

I am honestly just trying to get as many opinions and as much information about this as possible. The intent is not to increase gas mileage. And I am not addressing a problem, the factory cooling system is plenty adequate, and there is no real need to add downforce or traction up front at this point. I am just gathering information about a topic I have recently found intriguing.

so let's talk in a track oriented car sense here for me to aid you in answering these questions because downforce is not necessary whatsoever for a street car unless you want to go for looks which I would completely understand.

so on a track car, lets say you decided to box your radiator (just the radiator), and you decided to install some sort of hood vent or heat extracting hood....these mods will definitely aid your car in the cooling department. they will greatly aid that. but....even at high speeds just these few mods will not alleviate enough pressure under the car and in your engine bay to produce any noticeable amount of extra front downforce.

so it's time that you do want to produce that downforce, now is where you add a front splitter....(I like to say it that way because saying 'chin splitter' may confuse the layperson with the very common 'chin spoiler' which has no positive effect on any sort of downforce on a car). lets say your car is just your toy and is not limited to any specific race class. an effective front splitter will extend outwards from the front fascia anywhere from 1in to as far as you would like. obviously at a certain point the further you go the less useful that distance becomes and it may produce more adverse effects than positives. 3-5in is what I have read as being a very good amount extending outward. then this splitter also needs to extend backwards at least far enough to seal off the underside of the car up to the front of the wheel wells. so ultimately the undertray you speak of is really just the side of the splitter that isn't seen. the further you extend this back the better. if you feel frisky extend it back all the way to a custom rear defuser to make your car as slick as possible....woo....it'll slice through the air like butter.

all of these things combined with the boxed radiator and the hood ventilation will give you the perfect effects you speak of, of increased cooling (which will further be increased by the splitter which will divert air straight to the box).....I'll stop there and say that boxing your radiator will be almost completely useless unless you have some sort of undertray or splitter to successfully seal the bottom of the car btw. otherwise boxing the radiator is moot as air is just going to go eveerywhere it wants. so anyways, you will get your cooling and downforce two fold with all of these modifications put together correctly and working harmoniously together. your splitter setup would aid your downforce in not only low speeds but high speeds as well and ultimately would need to be finished off with a rear spoiler or wing setup that is optimized to work with your front setup. that is key to a balanced setup.

I will say I am no expert. there are many minds on here that can chime in much more on this subject and may even correct me. but for a basic jist of things these are the pros for these things. I just don't have any pro's and con's for you on this subject for a street setup other than my feeling that the time and effort to do it could be used elsewhere to aid your street car in other ways. downforce really isn't necessary on the street and unless you're running a turbo or supercharged setup cooling isn't inadequate at all on our cars. the stock fan setups are actually relatively good honestly. even for the track.

 

[DavidBoren]

WMFATEAM, please let me know how that goes for you and your friend, and what you end up having to do to tilt the radiator forward (mounting bracket modifications, hose re-routing, etc).

Bat, thank you for your input. I do know that these mods are definitely track oriented, and offer little real benefit for a street car.

Any thoughts on the best material for a full length under tray? It seems like that 1/8" plastic sheeting with the pebbled texture would be perfect and easy to use, except I think the exhaust would melt it. Aluminum sheeting would work as well, but it would be heavier and a little harder to work with. I would have no problem putting a full length belly pan under the car, track or street. That seems like an excellent idea. Especially with the other mods we have discussed.

 

[ba#97]

WMFATEAM, please let me know how that goes for you and your friend, and what you end up having to do to tilt the radiator forward (mounting bracket modifications, hose re-routing, etc).

Bat, thank you for your input. I do know that these mods are definitely track oriented, and offer little real benefit for a street car.

Any thoughts on the best material for a full length under tray? It seems like that 1/8" plastic sheeting with the pebbled texture would be perfect and easy to use, except I think the exhaust would melt it. Aluminum sheeting would work as well, but it would be heavier and a little harder to work with. I would have no problem putting a full length belly pan under the car, track or street. That seems like an excellent idea. Especially with the other mods we have discussed.

well for a splitter and undertray setup together, it needs to be something sturdy. and it needs to be installed solidly. so thick abs plastic or alumalite are the two I've heard work best. if you're talking about something to smooth out the bottom of the car sheet metal should do fine but once you get into that department you also need to think of the way the heat is going to get trapped under the car. which is no bueno.

so that should be a start. If you do jump into this project than more power to ya. I honestly don't see the point and can see your time, effort and funding going elsewhere but to each their own.