AaRoN
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Paul said:
:santa_afro:
Why is it?... A rant/observation
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Jrgunn5150
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I'm a little extreme about working on my car, but then again, like I always say, I'd rather screw it up myself for free than pay someone else to do it.
However, I know a guy with a Cobra, who paid someone to put a shifter in for him. He paid someone to put shiny neat little billet heater controls on it. He also paid someone 40k over the years to build him a freakin hardtail framed Harley wanna be that doesn't run right, mostly becuase it doesn't have the checkballs to let the pressure out of the heads..... And you should see the jack shaft araingment on it. But then, he doesn't listen to me when i tell him to go shoot the guy for being an idiot, because I don't "build bikes for a living"
However, I know a guy with a Cobra, who paid someone to put a shifter in for him. He paid someone to put shiny neat little billet heater controls on it. He also paid someone 40k over the years to build him a freakin hardtail framed Harley wanna be that doesn't run right, mostly becuase it doesn't have the checkballs to let the pressure out of the heads..... And you should see the jack shaft araingment on it. But then, he doesn't listen to me when i tell him to go shoot the guy for being an idiot, because I don't "build bikes for a living"
AaRoN
King Post Whore
I agree with most of everything above. Me and MOST of everyone I know personally works on their own cars. Not only is it alot cheaper but it is more satisfying to know that you did the work yourself. And you know how it was done.
94Pro-5.0 said:
I guess I wouldn't say its harder, but with the modulars they are certainly more complex. I remember the first time I pulled apart my 96 in my garage if my dad (was a tech, now runs an HP shop) wasn't helping I'd been in trouble. I was only 16 though. It can be very over whelming. On my 06 I've done a lot of work, and truely enjoy when I am able to do it myself. Trying now to make it 400rwhp N/A. (Sorry someone else is doing the heads, I have zero experience and it will take a lot to hit my goal.)
I love working on my car, but I do know my limitations. I can pull anything, but will let someone else fit my engine or tanny. Pretty much everything that has been done to my car since I have had it I have done. Minus a few things like tuning and exhaust work. The whole blower install was fun, and don't even get me started on the longtube install........ But, I would do it all over again!!
ba96gt said:
400 na? what car you doing this with?
smokeybear
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I used to work on my cars all the time. rebuild the carb., pull heads, Ect. Now its just the basic stuff oil,brakes, ect.
im 18, and I dont have a lot of experience with cars. my dad does, but not a massive amount. he can basically do everything, besides tear into a motor and rebuild it. we learn things together. however, come in the next month or two, my dad and I will be ripping into my 4.6 dohc mod motor and will be putting forged goodies into it as well as getting the heads rebuilt.. once the heads are finished, i may give a shot at porting them MYSELF.
you guys are probably thinking this is a disaster waiting to happen. i thought so to at first. I knew i had no experience in doing this, so guess what.. i was going to pay a pro. see, time is an issue for me. my cobra is a daily driver, i go to college, im doing 19 hours this upcoming semester and will have a job... so dont say time is not a factor. but my dad likes to do work on his own and i respect him for that. my dads buddy that is about 55-60 years old and has been building drag cars for almost 30 years i think is going to help with the rebuild. so he knows WTF he is doing hahah. he is going to watch over me when i port the heads, or at least show me the correct way (mild porting) and he is going to rebuild my motor for me, but also teach me how to do it and how to do it right.
to answer to your thread, i am actually against most of you guys. some of us dont have the experience to do all of this wrenching on our own. not turning the wrenches definitely doesnt make me a WANNABE car enthusiast thought. a car enthusiast IMO is based on someone who respects and loves cars, not their capabilities of working on them. thats being kind of ignorant if you ask me.
just because those with less experience cant do what you can doesn't mean you are a true "car enthusiast" and I am a fake, it just means that you have the capability of doing more things. i would be willing to bet i read more than a lot of people on this forum to try and learn about cars and whats better than what. according to your first post, you would be saying that I am apart of that crowd that just reads and gets bogus information and passes it on.. well reading up on things is how people learn. i dont go around telling people my newly learned information that I have no clue is true or not.. furthermore, do you expect someone who just bought there first higher performance car, to rip into a modular motor, rebuild it, and then put it in the car and drive it for another 100,000+ miles without a problem. i seriously doubt it...
people have to start somewhere... reading on the internet is probably one of the best ways to LEARN about cars.. working on them is also important but you have to have a general idea of what you are getting into before you start. so reading and researching on the internet is nothing bad.
i think this thread is kinda lame because half of you have owned cars for years and your saying that us young kids are sissies for not doing our own work. we have to learn somewhere.. and paying someone to do work you aren't capable of doing is nothing bad. your still a car enthusiast for loving your car and wanting to make it nicer.
you guys are probably thinking this is a disaster waiting to happen. i thought so to at first. I knew i had no experience in doing this, so guess what.. i was going to pay a pro. see, time is an issue for me. my cobra is a daily driver, i go to college, im doing 19 hours this upcoming semester and will have a job... so dont say time is not a factor. but my dad likes to do work on his own and i respect him for that. my dads buddy that is about 55-60 years old and has been building drag cars for almost 30 years i think is going to help with the rebuild. so he knows WTF he is doing hahah. he is going to watch over me when i port the heads, or at least show me the correct way (mild porting) and he is going to rebuild my motor for me, but also teach me how to do it and how to do it right.
to answer to your thread, i am actually against most of you guys. some of us dont have the experience to do all of this wrenching on our own. not turning the wrenches definitely doesnt make me a WANNABE car enthusiast thought. a car enthusiast IMO is based on someone who respects and loves cars, not their capabilities of working on them. thats being kind of ignorant if you ask me.
just because those with less experience cant do what you can doesn't mean you are a true "car enthusiast" and I am a fake, it just means that you have the capability of doing more things. i would be willing to bet i read more than a lot of people on this forum to try and learn about cars and whats better than what. according to your first post, you would be saying that I am apart of that crowd that just reads and gets bogus information and passes it on.. well reading up on things is how people learn. i dont go around telling people my newly learned information that I have no clue is true or not.. furthermore, do you expect someone who just bought there first higher performance car, to rip into a modular motor, rebuild it, and then put it in the car and drive it for another 100,000+ miles without a problem. i seriously doubt it...
people have to start somewhere... reading on the internet is probably one of the best ways to LEARN about cars.. working on them is also important but you have to have a general idea of what you are getting into before you start. so reading and researching on the internet is nothing bad.
i think this thread is kinda lame because half of you have owned cars for years and your saying that us young kids are sissies for not doing our own work. we have to learn somewhere.. and paying someone to do work you aren't capable of doing is nothing bad. your still a car enthusiast for loving your car and wanting to make it nicer.
Jrgunn5150
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You missed the point Trav...
It's not about young guy's, are guy's are don't know. It's about guy's who don't care. They don't care how to change an alternator, or replace a clutch. They don't care how to file fit ring's, they don't know and they don't want to. They remain willfully ignorant, they simply give up when they don't understand and pay someone else, who may or may not do it right. They never get in there and attempt to learn. For no particular reason, this bother's me, lol. I mean I know damn well that Walt could have put his own goddamn shifter on, but when I started telling him how to do it, his eye's glazed over and he just called his "mechanic" and paid him 200 (yes 200) to do it for him...
I'm not saying that everyone can or should port their own head's. But anyone with half a brain can learn, so don't be afraid to try, especially if you can get a second set, or have another driver. Same with tuning, or anything else for that matter, people are just too afraid to get in there and get their hands dirty nowadays. Not only that, the big myth surrounds the car culture now that we need "pro's" to do everything. We really don't, yes of course someone with 30 year's experience should be able to do a better job than me or you at whatever he does, that doesn't mean that you can't learn.
And I appreciate those of you who DD your car's, but for what some of you are paying in labor, you could have bought a beater to drive while you did it yourself, and still had the beater for next time...
It's more about the unwillingness of car people in general to attempt to do anything nowadays. They just regurgitate what they read, no one pioneer's, no one takes anything on. Everyone want's to follow (can you give me a write up with pics and a part's list please?).
It's just an observation, so no one take it personal please.
It's not about young guy's, are guy's are don't know. It's about guy's who don't care. They don't care how to change an alternator, or replace a clutch. They don't care how to file fit ring's, they don't know and they don't want to. They remain willfully ignorant, they simply give up when they don't understand and pay someone else, who may or may not do it right. They never get in there and attempt to learn. For no particular reason, this bother's me, lol. I mean I know damn well that Walt could have put his own goddamn shifter on, but when I started telling him how to do it, his eye's glazed over and he just called his "mechanic" and paid him 200 (yes 200) to do it for him...
I'm not saying that everyone can or should port their own head's. But anyone with half a brain can learn, so don't be afraid to try, especially if you can get a second set, or have another driver. Same with tuning, or anything else for that matter, people are just too afraid to get in there and get their hands dirty nowadays. Not only that, the big myth surrounds the car culture now that we need "pro's" to do everything. We really don't, yes of course someone with 30 year's experience should be able to do a better job than me or you at whatever he does, that doesn't mean that you can't learn.
And I appreciate those of you who DD your car's, but for what some of you are paying in labor, you could have bought a beater to drive while you did it yourself, and still had the beater for next time...
It's more about the unwillingness of car people in general to attempt to do anything nowadays. They just regurgitate what they read, no one pioneer's, no one takes anything on. Everyone want's to follow (can you give me a write up with pics and a part's list please?).
It's just an observation, so no one take it personal please.
i see what you are saying now.. i thought you were picking on the young guns or others that aren't fully capable (YET) of doing these things and were saying how its dumb to go to a pro.. and this made absolutely NO sense to me because i didn't see where you expected us to learn.
but now i see you meant caring about learning.. i missed that the first time. so my bad for getting defensive. i really wasn't mad either, i was just trying to stand my ground being that im 18 and do everything I am capable of doing myself. it felt like you were saying that wasn't good enough which is why i was frustrated..
i get help from my dad mainly and if he can't do it. we ask his buddies first then go to the pros.
but now i see you meant caring about learning.. i missed that the first time. so my bad for getting defensive. i really wasn't mad either, i was just trying to stand my ground being that im 18 and do everything I am capable of doing myself. it felt like you were saying that wasn't good enough which is why i was frustrated..
i get help from my dad mainly and if he can't do it. we ask his buddies first then go to the pros.
FUK_N_JUNK
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Well, I'm going to say that it is mainly due to the complexity of todays cars compared to what you guys say as "20 years ago" Not everything is a pushrod V8 w/HEI any longer, now you have cars with 15 computers in them, interference motors, and the like, so i guess most guys just preffer to have someone who knows what they are doing do the work rather than them f*ck it up and pay twice for it?
S
scarface
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I like working on my car, but there are things I just cant do. I would rather pay someone who will do it right, then to try it myself and end up spending more money to have it fixed after I break it.
Scarface said:
<a href="http://plugin.smileycentral.com/htt...%3D23%2F23%5F33%5F14%26feat%3Dprof/page.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/23/23_33_14.gif" alt="SmileyCentral.com" border="0">
Jrgunn, that's pretty much how I feel.
Paul, nice post.
"A guy in his basement is not going to port heads better than a CNC. "
CNC porting accomplishes two things. It will replicate the ports exactly the same way in every head, and it is much faster than porting by hand.
Porting by hand accomplishes two things. The porter can make some contours, if required, that the 5 axis CNC will not be able to do. These contours may be the "bit of magic" that makes the head produce even more power over the CNC'd head. The other thing that is accomplished is adjustment for particular heads. Not every casting is exactly identical. The human porter can spot these differences and compensate while porting in order to get the best results for this particular head.
Not saying that CNC porting isn't good. It can be excellent. I am just saying that, other than speed, it has no advantage over manual porting, and the human porter can do things with a head that a CNC doesn't know to do.
I also was not born with the knowledge to work on cars. The first thing I did on my first car was to replace the engine when I was 18. How did I manage to do that? I read a chilton's manual and a magazine article on how to do it. Ok, so yeah, the car was a 1968. Not too technical, eh? Still a big job to replace the engine yourself when you haven't even changed an alternator yet.
Well, the new engine had an electronic distributor and I wanted to use it; electronic ignition in a car that was built before electronic ignition existed. I made it work. How? I copied a diagram of the ignition system from the car that the engine came out of and copied the ignition diagram of my car, both at the library, and studied them. Then I figured out where the two systems meet and adjusted for that and made the appropriate connections and splices. The car fired right up.
Don't be afraid to reference repair manuals at the library or magazine tech articles. This is where you learn about cars. If you don't know something do the research on it.
Many people want someone to explain a process to them. There is a reason that you are not taught this way in school; you can't retain everything someone says to you. That's why you've got books and hand-outs to READ. Information that you read is retained far better than something someone says to you. After you've done your research THEN ask someoneo that's done it before so that now you can understand what they are telling you.
On my wife's car I rebuilt the engine, complete suspension, installed Granada front disc brakes, lowered the upper control arms, replaced the rear axle, all the brake lines, bent all the front brakelines myself, made a power brake booster from a 1981 Mustang work in her 1966, added a dual master cylinder to replace the dangerous single reservoir M/C, replaced the entire rear brakes (every component) installed a headliner (the old bow type), welded on subframe connectors, and many other things. Some of this I had done before, lots of it I had not, so don't say "Well, you've got all that experience...." EVERYONE starts out with NO experience, so we all start at the same point. Anything that I hadn't done before I read up on to learn about, not people's posts of what they think or believe, or have heard about doing something, but from magazine tech articles and books and manuals. That is where learning comes from.
I personally have a hard time paying someone to do something if I can do it myself, or figure out how to do it myself by learning.
I have saved thousands of dollars this way.
I am 43 years old. In this time I have learned NO ONE cares about your stuff as much as YOU. If you take nothing else from this post please hang onto this point.
While building my wife's engine I had the block tanked and machined at a very reputable, 35 years in business performance shop. They left a plug out of the oiling system which gave me "0" pressure to the lifters on the left bank of the engine. It's little details like this that will kill you. Also, after I notched the block for clearance for the stroker I took it back to get it tanked again to clean it and then get cam bearings and freeze plugs put in. When they said it was ready I went to pick it up, all wrapped up nicely in plastic. Unfortunately there were no cam bearings or freeze plugs.
That goes to show you that reputation and duration does not guarrantee quality work. I will not be taking my next block to them. Imagine if you had them build your engine and had full floating wrist pins and they left a spiral lock out. There goes your cylinder!
Nobody cares about your stuff more than you.
Don't be afraid to research how to do something at the library or by reading tech articles in magazines. You will have much more money to buy more PARTS to modify your car.
If it's your daily driver and it needs to be fixed to take to work tomorrow or the next day, yeah, take it somewhere and get it taken care of. No time to learn at that point.
Just realize, every one of us that have years of experience started out with none. If you want to save money, know exactly what kind of care went into the work, want to be able to verify the work that was done, and get a great sense of accomplishment then open a book or manual, read a tech article, and get dirty.
.........Oh! And on that point, I have been working on cars for 26 years and the only time I ever wore a glove is while doing welding. I hate seeing people with their "Mechanix" or blue "Nitril" gloves. It's not brain surgery, and whatever you get on your hands washes off.
Steve
Paul, nice post.
"A guy in his basement is not going to port heads better than a CNC. "
CNC porting accomplishes two things. It will replicate the ports exactly the same way in every head, and it is much faster than porting by hand.
Porting by hand accomplishes two things. The porter can make some contours, if required, that the 5 axis CNC will not be able to do. These contours may be the "bit of magic" that makes the head produce even more power over the CNC'd head. The other thing that is accomplished is adjustment for particular heads. Not every casting is exactly identical. The human porter can spot these differences and compensate while porting in order to get the best results for this particular head.
Not saying that CNC porting isn't good. It can be excellent. I am just saying that, other than speed, it has no advantage over manual porting, and the human porter can do things with a head that a CNC doesn't know to do.
I also was not born with the knowledge to work on cars. The first thing I did on my first car was to replace the engine when I was 18. How did I manage to do that? I read a chilton's manual and a magazine article on how to do it. Ok, so yeah, the car was a 1968. Not too technical, eh? Still a big job to replace the engine yourself when you haven't even changed an alternator yet.
Well, the new engine had an electronic distributor and I wanted to use it; electronic ignition in a car that was built before electronic ignition existed. I made it work. How? I copied a diagram of the ignition system from the car that the engine came out of and copied the ignition diagram of my car, both at the library, and studied them. Then I figured out where the two systems meet and adjusted for that and made the appropriate connections and splices. The car fired right up.
Don't be afraid to reference repair manuals at the library or magazine tech articles. This is where you learn about cars. If you don't know something do the research on it.
Many people want someone to explain a process to them. There is a reason that you are not taught this way in school; you can't retain everything someone says to you. That's why you've got books and hand-outs to READ. Information that you read is retained far better than something someone says to you. After you've done your research THEN ask someoneo that's done it before so that now you can understand what they are telling you.
On my wife's car I rebuilt the engine, complete suspension, installed Granada front disc brakes, lowered the upper control arms, replaced the rear axle, all the brake lines, bent all the front brakelines myself, made a power brake booster from a 1981 Mustang work in her 1966, added a dual master cylinder to replace the dangerous single reservoir M/C, replaced the entire rear brakes (every component) installed a headliner (the old bow type), welded on subframe connectors, and many other things. Some of this I had done before, lots of it I had not, so don't say "Well, you've got all that experience...." EVERYONE starts out with NO experience, so we all start at the same point. Anything that I hadn't done before I read up on to learn about, not people's posts of what they think or believe, or have heard about doing something, but from magazine tech articles and books and manuals. That is where learning comes from.
I personally have a hard time paying someone to do something if I can do it myself, or figure out how to do it myself by learning.
I have saved thousands of dollars this way.
I am 43 years old. In this time I have learned NO ONE cares about your stuff as much as YOU. If you take nothing else from this post please hang onto this point.
While building my wife's engine I had the block tanked and machined at a very reputable, 35 years in business performance shop. They left a plug out of the oiling system which gave me "0" pressure to the lifters on the left bank of the engine. It's little details like this that will kill you. Also, after I notched the block for clearance for the stroker I took it back to get it tanked again to clean it and then get cam bearings and freeze plugs put in. When they said it was ready I went to pick it up, all wrapped up nicely in plastic. Unfortunately there were no cam bearings or freeze plugs.
That goes to show you that reputation and duration does not guarrantee quality work. I will not be taking my next block to them. Imagine if you had them build your engine and had full floating wrist pins and they left a spiral lock out. There goes your cylinder!
Nobody cares about your stuff more than you.
Don't be afraid to research how to do something at the library or by reading tech articles in magazines. You will have much more money to buy more PARTS to modify your car.
If it's your daily driver and it needs to be fixed to take to work tomorrow or the next day, yeah, take it somewhere and get it taken care of. No time to learn at that point.
Just realize, every one of us that have years of experience started out with none. If you want to save money, know exactly what kind of care went into the work, want to be able to verify the work that was done, and get a great sense of accomplishment then open a book or manual, read a tech article, and get dirty.
.........Oh! And on that point, I have been working on cars for 26 years and the only time I ever wore a glove is while doing welding. I hate seeing people with their "Mechanix" or blue "Nitril" gloves. It's not brain surgery, and whatever you get on your hands washes off.
Steve
nesqwick_05
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guess what bothers me is the idea that we should let the "pros" do everything. if they can do it right, so can any1 else, just takes some patience. there isnt 1000000000000000000000000000000000+ ways to do a clutch swap right, or a cam swap right, or a right tune. but there are a few ways to do things, gotta get under the hood to do them.
take the pi intake swap for example. people didnt just suddenly take the car to the shop to have it done back in 1999 when the pi motors first came out, they had to test things out, see how it works, check for coolant leaks, etc... without that idea of pioneering the first pi swaps and such, none of us would be where we are today in the sn95 world.
and i think a car enthusiast love cars aswell, but they shouldnt be breed specific, if your a true car enthusiast, or racing enthusiast, u will like ALL Cars, that have respectable work done to them that look good. it may be a 1990 civic hatch, but if it had a 4v cobra motor, with a built 8.8 and whipple would u completely hate it just because its a hatchback honda??
i dunno, kinda just rambling and wandering, hope you guys understand....
take the pi intake swap for example. people didnt just suddenly take the car to the shop to have it done back in 1999 when the pi motors first came out, they had to test things out, see how it works, check for coolant leaks, etc... without that idea of pioneering the first pi swaps and such, none of us would be where we are today in the sn95 world.
and i think a car enthusiast love cars aswell, but they shouldnt be breed specific, if your a true car enthusiast, or racing enthusiast, u will like ALL Cars, that have respectable work done to them that look good. it may be a 1990 civic hatch, but if it had a 4v cobra motor, with a built 8.8 and whipple would u completely hate it just because its a hatchback honda??
i dunno, kinda just rambling and wandering, hope you guys understand....
Jrgunn5150
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Lol, I understand, I think I actually got through in at least one case. The PI swap was one of the thing's I had in mind as an example too. I understand people want to get as much knowledge as possible ahead of time, but alot of people want you to hold their friggin hand the whjole way...
As far as gloves go, lol. I swear I get a set for Christmas every year... I always lose the right ones, since I can't feel anything and take it off, lol.
As far as gloves go, lol. I swear I get a set for Christmas every year... I always lose the right ones, since I can't feel anything and take it off, lol.
ba96gt said:
you have a long expensive road ahead of you.
S
scarface
Guest
but arent you a professional...Im mean a mechanic by trade?Jrgunn5150 said:
94darkhorse
Legend
I am all about working on my car, I get a better felling of how everything works that way. If its not to complex I will tackle it but with not having any space to work on it I will occasionally get work done to my car. When I eventually get my own house I am going to try to do everything myself.
Same here.Scarface said:
