Blowers and high compression

jfor441

Legend
Joined
Apr 5, 2006
Messages
8,482
Reaction score
2
This question be best answered by Tad because I am looking for info concerning the Rotrex blower.

What is the biggest reason for NOT running a blower on a high compression engine? Is it the heat created? If so, and the Rotrex blowers do not create as much heat as a Vortech or any other popular brand of blower, would someone be able to run the Rotrex on say an 11.5:1 motor?
 

Mr. OAM

Active Member
Joined
Aug 18, 2007
Messages
780
Reaction score
0
The reason is just plain compression. If you've got 11.5:1 compression in your engine putting a blower on it is going to raise it higher because of forcing extra volume of air into the engine. This will lead to detonation which will beat your engine to death.

Please get a book on supercharging and read up on the basics so that you know what physics factors you are dealing with. It's not wise to go blindly into something like this.


Steve
 
OP
OP
J

jfor441

Legend
Joined
Apr 5, 2006
Messages
8,482
Reaction score
2
Mr. OAM said:
The reason is just plain compression. If you've got 11.5:1 compression in your engine putting a blower on it is going to raise it higher because of forcing extra volume of air into the engine. This will lead to detonation which will beat your engine to death.

Please get a book on supercharging and read up on the basics so that you know what physics factors you are dealing with. It's not wise to go blindly into something like this.


Steve

That is why I am asking this question. I don't need to read a book. Compressing air raises the temperature. If the Rotrex blower achieves the same amount of power with lower inlet temperatures, then maybe it might be a good choice with a higher compression motor. Other factors to think about, if someone was running a water-methanol kit, that would also lower the air inlet temps significantly thereby helping to reduce the chance of detonation. Water-methanol makes the effective octane rating of 93 octane gasoline closer to 120 octane.

I am not going blindly into anything, I am asking a question.
 

Hellion94

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 14, 2006
Messages
1,400
Reaction score
8
jfor441 said:
Mr. OAM said:
The reason is just plain compression. If you've got 11.5:1 compression in your engine putting a blower on it is going to raise it higher because of forcing extra volume of air into the engine. This will lead to detonation which will beat your engine to death.

Please get a book on supercharging and read up on the basics so that you know what physics factors you are dealing with. It's not wise to go blindly into something like this.


Steve

That is why I am asking this question. I don't need to read a book. Compressing air raises the temperature. If the Rotrex blower achieves the same amount of power with lower inlet temperatures, then maybe it might be a good choice with a higher compression motor. Other factors to think about, if someone was running a water-methanol kit, that would also lower the air inlet temps significantly thereby helping to reduce the chance of detonation. Water-methanol makes the effective octane rating of 93 octane gasoline closer to 120 octane.

I am not going blindly into anything, I am asking a question.

You're totally missing the point here. The problem in question is NOT the temperature, it's the cylinder pressure. Detonation can occur because of increasingly high cylinder pressure, not necessarily just temperature, causing severe engine damage. Not to mention, the stress on the rotating assembly will be immense, probably too great for your engine to handle. Your block would also have to be an aftermarket, super strong unit like a Man-O-War or a Dart Iron Eagle.

There is a reason you use low compression ratios on motors that will see boost, it has nothing to do with the inlet temps or efficiency of the power adder.

Besides, no matter how efficient you make something, compressing air still makes it hot, and then lighting it on fire will make it even hotter, so simply saying that the inlet temps are a little lower is in no way a justification for running boost into a high compression motor. The highest you would want to go is 9.5:1
 

tooslow

Active Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2007
Messages
463
Reaction score
0
yeah, our engines just can't handle high compression and boost.

it is detonation that needs to be feared, not heat from the blower.

how much compression and how much boost an engine can handle varies. for most modulars you don't want much more than 9.5:1. how much boost will depend on compression and also blower size(cfm) before knowing how much psi of boost you can safely run.

now, not all boosted engines are limited to such low compression. again, it is detonation that kills, so engines with extremely well designed heads and combustion chambers can run higher levels of boost and compression without fear or detonation. one example is newer Audie engines (forgot their name) that are factory turboed with as much as 12:1 on at least one DGI version.

the modular engine doesn't have that luxury. keep it around 9:1
 

TxCobrA98

Legend
Joined
May 14, 2006
Messages
7,976
Reaction score
8
you would be pushing to much pressure into the cylinders.

if you take a balloon, and fill it pretty full.. then you stuff WAY more air in the balloon than it can handle, it goes BOOM BOOM... same with your motor. of course a bit different but you see the point.
 

Jrgunn5150

Post Whore
Joined
Jun 29, 2007
Messages
12,273
Reaction score
2
Everyone say's, no go low compression. I ran around for over 2 year's with 10.5:1 compression and 10 lbs of boost. Back and forth acrossed the country, through deserts and mountains, a good solid 40k with nary an issue. LT1's and LS1's have a similar c/r ratio stock, and yet they run blower's on those car's (packaging makes it suck, but some do).

You will need to be conservative in the tune, and not get greedy with the boost, but my car was far snappier than a low c/r, high boost combo to get to the same power level.
 

DropTopPony

Post Whore
Joined
Jan 12, 2006
Messages
15,182
Reaction score
223
Location
South Jersey
I know a few guys running around with 10.3 CR and boost but they know they are on borrowed time and none of them are pushing over 10psi. After alot of reading and searching i decided to use a 23cc piston in my setup so my CR would be @8.5 or so but i'm using a PD blower, if i was using a Centri i would have stayed alittle higher...like 9.0 ish.
 

Mr. OAM

Active Member
Joined
Aug 18, 2007
Messages
780
Reaction score
0
jfor441 said:
Mr. OAM said:
The reason is just plain compression. If you've got 11.5:1 compression in your engine putting a blower on it is going to raise it higher because of forcing extra volume of air into the engine. This will lead to detonation which will beat your engine to death.

Please get a book on supercharging and read up on the basics so that you know what physics factors you are dealing with. It's not wise to go blindly into something like this.


Steve

That is why I am asking this question. I don't need to read a book. Compressing air raises the temperature. If the Rotrex blower achieves the same amount of power with lower inlet temperatures, then maybe it might be a good choice with a higher compression motor. Other factors to think about, if someone was running a water-methanol kit, that would also lower the air inlet temps significantly thereby helping to reduce the chance of detonation. Water-methanol makes the effective octane rating of 93 octane gasoline closer to 120 octane.

I am not going blindly into anything, I am asking a question.


You sound like someone that would build an engine without knowing anything about them when you say this (not saying you don't know how to build a normally aspirated engine, this is a comparison). How hard can it be to put the parts together, right? Well, there is a lot of physics that engines are designed and built around and to do these things correctly you need to know how these things work and what factors are involved.

Yes, you asked a question but I did not give you the answer you were wanting. Sorry, but there are physics and engineering involved that cannot be discounted. Supercharging engines started with supercharging fighter plane engines in WW II . Since then hotrodders have been adapting them to cars so there is a very long history of trial and error as well as precision engineering done by real engineers, and to this day supercharged street engines are not built with high compression for several real reasons that are all based on physics, and physics does not change.

So yes, you need to read a book to understand what is involved. There are no points to argue, only information to learn and understand. Nobody became a mechanic or engine builder because someone just told them once how to do it. You need to learn about these things, that's why not everybody can do it.

IF you were to build an engine this way you would need a race block, 4 bolt billet studded main caps, forged crank, rods, and pistons, studs for mounting the heads, the tops of the cylinders in the block would need to be machined for metal ring seals in the head gaskets, very high pressure valve springs, and life expectancy of the engine would still be shortened. This would take more money and last shorter on the street than most people have to waste. But don't take my word for it, the reason for this would become clear if you read a book on supercharging. Reading is not just something done in school, it's done when we want or need to learn about something.

Steve
 

TxCobrA98

Legend
Joined
May 14, 2006
Messages
7,976
Reaction score
8
what Steve said, and btw, researching and learning about stuff that is actually interesting is fun!

nothing wrong with reading a good book about how superchargers work and their design. O0 O0
 

Downshift

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 21, 2006
Messages
1,926
Reaction score
1
Just wondering why you would even want run high comp and boost? Why not just run more boost? You will get more power with more boost than if you had higher compression. Even if you got equal power, it would not be worth the extra strain on the motor and most likely having to run half race gas on the street. And when someone gives you an answer dont jump their shit because they are telling you something that you dont wanna hear especially when they are RIGHT they went out of their way to help you out with what they know. Good luck with what you go with.
 

Jrgunn5150

Post Whore
Joined
Jun 29, 2007
Messages
12,273
Reaction score
2
5.0wned said:
Just wondering why you would even want run high comp and boost? Why not just run more boost? You will get more power with more boost than if you had higher compression. Even if you got equal power, it would not be worth the extra strain on the motor and most likely having to run half race gas on the street. And when someone gives you an answer dont jump their shit because they are telling you something that you dont wanna hear especially when they are RIGHT they went out of their way to help you out with what they know. Good luck with what you go with.

No, you will make more power on high compression and low boost. A guy with about 8.5:1 and 15 psi will get run down by a guy with 10.5:1 and 8 psi, everytime. And high boost guy will have better throttle response, and mileage.

Now 13:1 and any boost is ridiculous and too much.
 

Latest posts

Forum statistics

Threads
78,527
Messages
1,535,649
Members
16,185
Latest member
dmen76

Members online

Top