Bronze Envy...

doggiedoc

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I‘ve got a nagging sensation that I am going to regret not ordering my TFS Twisted Wedge Race 195 heads from Modular Head Shop. They upgrade the valve guides from powdered metal that TFS uses to bronze guides. I just didn’t want to spend the extra cost that they charged over the unmodified version from Summit.

So I am wondering. Have any of you forumistas ever pressed valve guides in or out?
 
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96blak54

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Will they do all the added machine work as well for the extra cost? I would think they would.

How much rpm you gonna run and How extreme is this engine gonna be? I get it tho, you want to build it right!
 
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doggiedoc

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I’m not really sure what has to be done to swap them out. I really would think as much as the Trick Flow heads cost, they’d come with bronze guides.

Anyway - too late for this build. I did the final bolt down on the heads last night.
 

joe65

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yeah that was part of my stress about those heads. Fucking just put bronze guides on them for how much they sell for. Who knows, the powdered guides will probably be ok. Trying to make you feel better since they are already on your engine. lol.
 
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doggiedoc

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yeah that was part of my stress about those heads. Fucking just put bronze guides on them for how much they sell for. Who knows, the powdered guides will probably be ok. Trying to make you feel better since they are already on your engine. lol.
My thoughts exactly! They sell them as ”race” heads why not put bronze guides. I suppose they have a lot of faith in there proprietary metal.
 

joe65

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My thoughts exactly! They sell them as ”race” heads why not put bronze guides. I suppose they have a lot of faith in there proprietary metal.

i have a 2nd gen coyote on a stand that something happened and it broke a valve, and the stock valve guide cracked too. It looks like its powdered, but i don't know that for sure. (thats a project for another day). But that's one thing I've read. If the valve gets bent at all the powdered guides can crack/break where the bronze won't as be as prone to break or crack.
 

OLD H2S

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Sorry for the delay
You still have not said the build type and how high the RPM and why. High RPM will not get you much on a 4.6 they only flow 500 cfm at 5k and that is with the heads off. The TFH are the best out there BUT.. NA you can only get 330 HP out of 4.6, it is a waste.
Yes, yes TFH has this graph and that chart but the results are hard to duplicate and that build is going to need PRO level rebuilds frequently to keep you happy.
They work much better on a bigger engine like a 5.4
Look at the hoops Ford jumps through on the Coyote to get high HP and high RPM, that's a lot of effort. It comes in at 1.5 HP/CID, and what is the longevity? My buddies are having problems at 35k miles and they are not racing them.
Using the same big cam and jumping from the PI manifold to the Edelbrock I lost torque and gained 10 HP while moving the peak up 500RPM = BFD.
The valve guide are PM on the TFH and I had one fail turn into a million micro bb's
bounce back up into the manifold and take out 7 cylinders. No response from THF...none, no calls, emails, nothing they do not want to talk to end users and I do not blame them in a way. After months I called Summit and sent them back and heard nothing...I had moved on to another head project and come home one day to find a new set of TFH on the porch, but still no contact or updates???
The PM valve guides are a long taper design and for but are fragile to vibration? You must but the Track Heat heads to get the cnc machining and bronze guides and pay more. Pushing out a PM guide is going to be a PITA, some will shatter, but it easy to do.
Put the heads in a 300 degree oven and push then out backwards, takes 5 minutes.
Now what do you do about the new ones? Type, length, size, are you going to knife edge them before you put them in? Nope just slam them in and go. How are you going to size them? And why, you still have not said the engine build and this is the same question MMR is going to ask and you want the high RPM set up and find out it is loose and noisy, drives shitty on the street and now you hate MMR. Been there done it and it will run nice when you get it hot enough to swell up the guides and piston rings but until max pressure is applied..
What kind of valves? TFH are big but cheap, how much clearance for your heat range the build will make, NA or FI? Totally different clearances must be made through out the total build. What happens when it gets hot or really hot?
Fastest cheapest way, get the Track Heat heads and skip the MMR BS.
This is why an engine for the street starts at 14,000 from L&M...it's worth it. By the time I am finished with a build it cost me 13,000 I should have payed the extra 1000 and saved the time and agrevation.

GOT FLOW?
IMG_1504-D.jpg

IMG_0496-D.jpg

IMG_0497-D.jpg

IMG_1203-D.jpg

IMG_1204-D.jpg

IMG_1218-D.jpg

See that silver pin, that is a pin gauge and the only way to check your honing size, here I am done and putting the cross hatching on the guide after cutting with a straight flute reamer..Lots of tooling required and you MUST have a plan on why you are doing that way so you can amake changes and get it right the next build.
I have done 3 Cobras and 13 street race engines and I showed all the time and money wasted here somewhere.
I done, it's been fun but I am chasing the unicorn like you and they do not exist.
 

joe65

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What i appreciate about your posts is the honesty and no BS. I have proof in my garage right now that Ford is pushing the limits with the coyote. I have a 2nd gen with only 25k miles that for some reason broke a valve stem. I haven't pulled it apart to see what's going on in the shortblock, but the motor wasn't run that hard in the car it came out of. Then you look online and yeah its a problem, lots of examples. Anyways, I appreciate the info on the 4.6 builds.
 

OLD H2S

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Well that is going to be $ + PITA, The bottom end holds up OK but what do the pistons look like? Now they are not round and ether are the bores, now what? Maybe a rod is now bent, how will you know? It looks OK. At cars and coffee on Sunday I talk to my engine builder buddy that is in the same boat and it is the reason on some of my builds I just take them down to have a look see on what is happy and what is a shiny spot rubbing. but I still have to do new rings and bearings and gaskets and, and and.
1 thing I have learned is these engines were made to go together 1 time with all new parts and this is not 1966 when bolts and parts could be used again and again. Now I balance to 1/10th of a gram and then take it all to The House of Balance to get the dynamic job done or they will shake and take out a valve guide. Why did Ford use hard steel valve guides..they last, but they are not round anymore so....
Serdi machines suck, nobodies Blanchard grinder is going to save the flywheel, heads will pass pressure test and then "sweat" and hydrolock and bang, dead pistons and bent rods or loose piston pins and noisy top ends...it never ends, and do not get me started on counterfeit parts. I have lost 2 engines to a fake fuelpump and a set of fake rings.
How do you know?? Everyone lies. I have helped people out and the big names are just as bad when you do the tear down and find mistakes, on a noisy idle and loss of power or low compression or leak down.
I would love to have a flat plane GT350 BUT... I have not seen one yet with 30000 miles on it and the owners are scared, and the 3 gen. 5.0 are no better. When I look at the people we have lost on this web site after a build where did they go? They would be here bragging if it was a good result, and I hope they would.
 

evilcw311

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Well that is going to be $ + PITA, The bottom end holds up OK but what do the pistons look like? Now they are not round and ether are the bores, now what? Maybe a rod is now bent, how will you know? It looks OK. At cars and coffee on Sunday I talk to my engine builder buddy that is in the same boat and it is the reason on some of my builds I just take them down to have a look see on what is happy and what is a shiny spot rubbing. but I still have to do new rings and bearings and gaskets and, and and.
1 thing I have learned is these engines were made to go together 1 time with all new parts and this is not 1966 when bolts and parts could be used again and again. Now I balance to 1/10th of a gram and then take it all to The House of Balance to get the dynamic job done or they will shake and take out a valve guide. Why did Ford use hard steel valve guides..they last, but they are not round anymore so....
Serdi machines suck, nobodies Blanchard grinder is going to save the flywheel, heads will pass pressure test and then "sweat" and hydrolock and bang, dead pistons and bent rods or loose piston pins and noisy top ends...it never ends, and do not get me started on counterfeit parts. I have lost 2 engines to a fake fuelpump and a set of fake rings.
How do you know?? Everyone lies. I have helped people out and the big names are just as bad when you do the tear down and find mistakes, on a noisy idle and loss of power or low compression or leak down.
I would love to have a flat plane GT350 BUT... I have not seen one yet with 30000 miles on it and the owners are scared, and the 3 gen. 5.0 are no better. When I look at the people we have lost on this web site after a build where did they go? They would be here bragging if it was a good result, and I hope they would.

All this and more is why I don’t like mods. People can call my pushrods dinosaurs but at least when built right with good parts they will hold up. I’ve seen too many high dollar mod motors not last.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
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joe65

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All this and more is why I don’t like mods. People can call my pushrods dinosaurs but at least when built right with good pets they will hold up. I’ve seen too many high dollar mod motors not last.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I can see where you're coming from, not to mention that the push rod motor is so compact and easy to work on.

also makes me appreciate the coyote motor class in the fox mustang racing where they buy the crate motor and can't break the seals on the motor all to do anything internal. keeps it simple and unmolested.

oops sorry doggiedoc, kind of hi- jacked your thread.
 
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doggiedoc

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....oops sorry doggiedoc, kind of hi- jacked your thread.
No worries! Keep the comments coming!

Looks like a lot of good info - will read closely after work! Thank you all for your replies!

Doc
 
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doggiedoc

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Sorry for the delay
You still have not said the build type and how high the RPM and why.
Honestly I don't expect to rev more than 7000. This is a FI build and I will be running a Kenne Bell 3.2LC. I will have to see where the peak power is with this new head/cam combo.

Teksid block 3.7 inch bore, stock stroke- Darton wet sleeved, forged 8 bolt crank, 1500 hp rods and custom dished pistons for low static compression. About 8:1 maybe less but it's been a while and VT went out of business so I can't ask. I ditched the ported PI heads from VT and their Stage 3 blower cams and now have the TFS Twisted Wedge Race 195 heads and Modular Head Shop's Stage 3 Blower Cams for TFS heads.

On the previous combo (VT/Heads and Cams) and this same low compression pistons, the car made 300 rwhp with a FRPP intake and stock plenum as a temporary setup until I buy the KB.


Now what do you do about the new ones? Type, length, size, are you going to knife edge them before you put them in? Nope just slam them in and go. How are you going to size them? And why, you still have not said the engine build and this is the same question MMR is going to ask and you want the high RPM set up and find out it is loose and noisy, drives shitty on the street and now you hate MMR. Been there done it and it will run nice when you get it hot enough to swell up the guides and piston rings but until max pressure is applied..
What kind of valves? TFH are big but cheap, how much clearance for your heat range the build will make, NA or FI? Totally different clearances must be made through out the total build. What happens when it gets hot or really hot?
These are questions I don't have answers to. Thus, my reason for starting this thread.

Your insight and advice has been wonderful, it's just I am past the point for changing the guides now. The PM ones will have to do. The upgrades will have to wait for the next rebuild I suppose.

This is really fun for me. I am learning a lot as I go and I expect to make some mistakes. That's ok. I will likely try to tap into your wisdom more soon!

Thanks,
Doc
 

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