Head Options

KillNThrill24

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I saw a set of patriot stage 3's for sale for 1200 and wish I had the cash because I'd have offered a grand and see if they bit. I have some romeo heads attached to my 03 sitting on the stand. For ~650-700hp what options do I have? Cheaper the better obviously, but I know cheaper isn't better. That being said would you port the stock romeos, try to snag some patriots, or pony up the cash for tfs? I think I may have mentioned something about this many months ago but I was just gauging opinions. I'm actually hoping to be in the market within the next couple months here as my build is finally making some progress...
 

ScottyDsntKnow

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Cheap and that power level really don't go together. I'd just do the TFS right off the bat and be done with it. Failing that you can look into the MMR or MHS heads and see what they are going for these days but I think the ported ones were in the $1700-$1800 range for the Stage 2s and at that point you might as well just get the TFS heads for a little more which flow better box stock than any safely ported PI head will.

Or just see about getting a low mileage Coyote motor.
 

DropTopPony

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Even though Patriot supposedly fixed their issues a few years back, I wouldn't touch those heads used for any amount of money. For $1200 or so you can find some Fox Lake St 2's or save another $1000 and get the TFS.
 
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KillNThrill24

KillNThrill24

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I never said cheap and power went together lol. My point was I'm trying to not overpay for stuff I don't really need. TFS are around $2200 before tax and MMR is $1400 for their stage 2, $1600 for stage 3. MHS is $1600 for stage 2 and $1900 for stage 3. I'm not even bothering with stage 1 because I might as well keep my stock heads IMO.

Bob good call I was thinking Fox Lake in my head not Patriot. I can't remember of those were Patriot I saw or Fox Lake but I wouldn't buy Patriots either. I'm going to talk to my buddy with the 700hp turbo 2v and see what he says. Honestly he's running that power on bone stock PI heads, just has MHS stage 2 cams and probably the necessary components in the heads to run the cams
 

ScottyDsntKnow

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I've seen low 600s on stock heads but it took a LOT of boost to get there and they fell flat on their faces at 6200rpm. $1400 for the MMR stage 2s is probably as good a deal as you are going to see.
 

Sinned83

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Forget patriot head. They make better paper weights
 

ScottyDsntKnow

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Eh, some ppl had great luck with the Patriots but it was really hit or miss.
 

96blak54

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At that power level I wouldnt mess with a stock head that only has .375" deck. The tfs heads deck claims .750" and thats what your really gonna want. A thicker deck to keep that head planted down onto the block so the cylinders dont bleed off. The heads raising up under boost tends to be a problem with stock heads.
 
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KillNThrill24

KillNThrill24

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You guys are killing me. Lol Even my buddy with the 700hp 2v said go with TFS. I was trying to avoid spending that kind of money, but I guess since I'm going all out with the rest of the engine.......

Sent from my HTC6525LVW using Tapatalk
 

ScottyDsntKnow

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You guys are killing me. Lol Even my buddy with the 700hp 2v said go with TFS. I was trying to avoid spending that kind of money, but I guess since I'm going all out with the rest of the engine.......

Sent from my HTC6525LVW using Tapatalk

Yeah pretty much, do it right the first time and all. Or just get rid of the Modular and swap to a Coyote... Or LS2.
 
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KillNThrill24

KillNThrill24

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Hahaha nooooo lsx in my car man. Coyote would be epic but way too much money for pockets to buy it build it and swap it

Sent from my HTC6525LVW using Tapatalk
 

ScottyDsntKnow

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Hahaha nooooo lsx in my car man. Coyote would be epic but way too much money for pockets to buy it build it and swap it

Sent from my HTC6525LVW using Tapatalk

LSx is a better swap than the Coyote for multiple reasons but ppl get hung up on "zomg chebby evil lol". Whatever, the old hot rodders back in the day would have shit from 3 or 4 different brands all mashed together and it would be great. For the price of the TFS heads and some cams you could be 75% done with a 400whp LSx swap including a transmission. Food for thought.
 

96blak54

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Throwing this out there, ive scheduled in to machine out a set of 10rib pullies for a friend. Let me know if your interested
 

sneaky98gt

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Don't get caught up in the Trick Flow heads hype. Unless you're building a track car meant to turn 8000 rpm, a set of ported PIs will suit you better. I've seen it happen quite a bit recently: someone buys a set of TFS heads and cams, installs on their car, and they pick up marginal amounts of power below 6000 rpm, or even lose some. A set of ported PIs are cheaper and better for 90+% of folks out there.

If you're feeling adventurous, you can port your own and save some money. I recently did this. It's not nearly as hard as people act like, just time consuming (I spent 30ish hours on my heads). Most all the "secrets" to porting PI heads is out on the 'net, if you look around a little bit.
 

96blak54

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Trick flow hype? I haven't seen or heard of pi heads exceeding 350rwhp on a 4.6l. If you are just swaping heads, then no real power is gained.
 

ScottyDsntKnow

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Trick flow hype? I haven't seen or heard of pi heads exceeding 350rwhp on a 4.6l. If you are just swaping heads, then no real power is gained.

I'm sure he is not talking about NA. There are very few ppl who do NA modular builds and nobody serious is going to be unless its a class race or something. Lots of 600-700+ rwhp cars with ported PI heads on boost/nitrous though.
 

sneaky98gt

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Trick flow hype? I haven't seen or heard of pi heads exceeding 350rwhp on a 4.6l. If you are just swaping heads, then no real power is gained.

Yes, Trick Flow hype. How many TFS headed 4.6 cars are making more than 350 rwhp? I'm certainly not in-the-know with those setups, but a quick google search netted me 0 examples of such cars. Most all I saw were in the 330-340 rwhp area, with a few less than that.

Ported PI setups will make in the 330 rwhp area, so the peak difference isn't much. And even if they make 20 more peak horsepower, I'd bet the race is still close when the PIs make more power over most of the powerband. A guy on another forum I'm on put a set of TFS heads on his supercharged 2 valve GT. Picked up 45 rwtq at 6500 rpm (over stock PI heads and cams), but lost power from 4500 rpm down, as much as 40+ ft-lbs of torque from 3000 rpm down. The kicker here: that's compared to stock PI heads and cams, not ported PIs that already has cams. Rarely do well-ported PI heads lose any power at lower rpm, and my aftermarket cams picked up power across the powerband.

I stand by my original statement. Unless you have an all-out race setup that has a power band of 5500 - 8000 rpm and deep pockets, I'd stick with ported PIs. They're cheaper and will make more power over the majority of the powerband of a street car.
 

D3VST8R96GT

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Idk the intake and cams play a huge role. IMO I don't think its worth it at this point in time 2k is just too much.... I could have stage 3 ports and cams for that. When they come down in price about 500 I'll take a bite

The D3V
 

ScottyDsntKnow

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Yes, Trick Flow hype. How many TFS headed 4.6 cars are making more than 350 rwhp? I'm certainly not in-the-know with those setups, but a quick google search netted me 0 examples of such cars. Most all I saw were in the 330-340 rwhp area, with a few less than that.

Ported PI setups will make in the 330 rwhp area, so the peak difference isn't much. And even if they make 20 more peak horsepower, I'd bet the race is still close when the PIs make more power over most of the powerband. A guy on another forum I'm on put a set of TFS heads on his supercharged 2 valve GT. Picked up 45 rwtq at 6500 rpm (over stock PI heads and cams), but lost power from 4500 rpm down, as much as 40+ ft-lbs of torque from 3000 rpm down. The kicker here: that's compared to stock PI heads and cams, not ported PIs that already has cams. Rarely do well-ported PI heads lose any power at lower rpm, and my aftermarket cams picked up power across the powerband.

I stand by my original statement. Unless you have an all-out race setup that has a power band of 5500 - 8000 rpm and deep pockets, I'd stick with ported PIs. They're cheaper and will make more power over the majority of the powerband of a street car.

Well this is pulled from another forum...

So a forum member decided to make the move from Kansas down to warm and sunny FL. He also happened to move less then 2 miles from me...so I made the mistake of mentioning that I tune my own vehicles. And next thing I know I have a 2001 Roush sitting in my driveway begging to be tuned LoL


So yesterday Travis124 and I took the trip up to VMP's shop to borrow their dyno. There we strapped down Travis's 2001 Roush with a 5.0 stroker, TFS 38cc heads, MHS Stage 3 cams, Edelbrock intake and 6061 Plenum. BBK 75mm TB and BBK longtubes with Magnaflow cats. Car runs on E85 and has a Zex plate kit on it as well.


Here is what she layed down after some tuning...N/A!



2001 Roush Dyno - YouTube


If you watch the end of the video you can see me sticking my head out the window trying to get a better look at the computer screen. Because from where I was sitting I thought it said 393rwhp :eeek: Turns out...it did!

Still say its not worth it at all for what that cost. I'm willing to bet he is $10k into that drivetrain plus the cost of the Roush=just buy a 2011+ Coyote for cheaper.
 
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KillNThrill24

KillNThrill24

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So you guys are trying to tell me a set of stage 3 ported heads, which are damn near as much as a set of TFS, is better than buying TFS? How does that even make sense? The added RPM range when boost is added to the equation would make for some great gains in numbers would it not? Not to mention the deck height difference. I don't know, if the ported heads were cheaper than they are I would say yeah worth a shot. But being damn near as expensive as a TFS.....

And true, while he's got serious dough invested into that build, it's also pretty cool to see a 2v pushing damn near 400 n/a. You just don't see that. Would I spend that kind of money on a n/a setup? Nope. Agreed on the Coyote part. But still he's setup to slap a blower or turbo on and really crank out some good numbers, much like a Coyote. (Yes I know the Coyote is stock compared to heavily modded 2v, but that's not the point I'm making).
 

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