New Boss motor? Vid link

[Jrgunn5150]

Sorry if it's a re-post, I just got excited, is this the new "Hurricane"? http://www.nmratv.com/index.php?str...deo/racecoverage/milan07/Roush.flv&playlist=1

 

[Shocker98GT]

Well, they said 5.4 supercar motor so I'd guess no. Hurricane engine is rumored to start off with a 4.015" bore and 3.74" stroke, which achieves 379 cubic inches (6.2L), and they're rumoring a shorter stroke 5.8L design for the Mustang, and the ability to go to a 427" displacement.

Personally, I think the engine should simply be a larger modular. As in, keep the fantastic block design elements, the oiling system design, and KEEP IT OHC. Don't follow Dodge and Chevy, put the nail in the coffin. Put the lovely 3V head design on the above block and it will flat out roast the LS or Hemi engines, maybe a 4V for higher performance applications. They were rumoring pushrods for a while, now some say it'll be SOHC and start as a 2V, etc. Ford needs to make absolutely sure that they put out a dominating engine and start the platform off right, remember what happened when the modular lineup was introduced?

 

[Jrgunn5150]

Going off the valve cover's, it doesn't look like a 5.4 to me. I agree with the mod motors benefit's, but it does need a larger bore centerline to be able to remain competetive.

 

[95Grandtouring5.0]

Well, they said 5.4 supercar motor so I'd guess no. Hurricane engine is rumored to start off with a 4.015" bore and 3.74" stroke, which achieves 379 cubic inches (6.2L), and they're rumoring a shorter stroke 5.8L design for the Mustang, and the ability to go to a 427" displacement.

Personally, I think the engine should simply be a larger modular. As in, keep the fantastic block design elements, the oiling system design, and KEEP IT OHC. Don't follow Dodge and Chevy, put the nail in the coffin. Put the lovely 3V head design on the above block and it will flat out roast the LS or Hemi engines, maybe a 4V for higher performance applications. They were rumoring pushrods for a while, now some say it'll be SOHC and start as a 2V, etc. Ford needs to make absolutely sure that they put out a dominating engine and start the platform off right, remember what happened when the modular lineup was introduced?

Thats just the problem though, without boost a over head cam ford motor will not make nearly as much as a ls series motor without cam and head work, and if you put a decent set of heads and cam on a ls1 it will blow it out of the water. The only good thing about their over head cam technology is how strong the blocks are, and with all forged internals can handle a lot of boost and push major horsepower. Without boost it would be very hard to get one of those motors over 400hp n/a. Chevrolet and Dodge had their eye on the ball.

 

[Shocker98GT]

Thats just the problem though, without boost a over head cam ford motor will not make nearly as much as a ls series motor without cam and head work, and if you put a decent set of heads and cam on a ls1 it will blow it out of the water. The only good thing about their over head cam technology is how strong the blocks are, and with all forged internals can handle a lot of boost and push major horsepower. Without boost it would be very hard to get one of those motors over 400hp n/a. Chevrolet and Dodge had their eye on the ball.

I don't know why people think the problem is due to the motor being OHC. OHC is the saving grace to these motors. If you designed a 281 cubic inch motor with a 3.55 bore size, and stuck with the 2V pushrod configuration it would mean an enormous power loss, it would be a DOG, substantially worse than our cars.

The 3V heads flow very comparably to the LS6 heads, that's measured on a flowbench set up for a 3.55" bore size. The 4V heads do even better. And this is done keeping enough velocity to maintain low end torque on a small displacement engine. Put those type heads on a 4" bore, reshape the chamber, relocate the valves a bit, it'll make more power AND more torque than the LSx and Hemi engines on the market. Bar none. Just look at the gains people are getting from these motors going to just a 3.7" bore size, most are gaining 30-40lb/ft throughout the ENTIRE rpm range with no other changes. 4" bore would be even better. And add enough displacement to take advantage of the potential headflow....it would murder anything GM and Chrysler have on the table right now. And it'd do it with less displacement, as long as the bore stays large.

 

[Mr. OAM]

According to Ford, Mark Fields, the VP of the North America, revived the Hurricane engine after it had already been shelved. When Fields brought it back on board hurricane Katrina had come through and he thought that the Hurricane name was no longer a good idea. He then chose to bring back the Boss name in the US and it is now the new Boss block that is available. It is based on the 5.0L design but is more block than any version before it ever thought of having. I think everyone is aware of this block today. This is what Ford chose to do when it was running out of production 5.0L blocks for the aftermarket.


Steve

 

[Jrgunn5150]

All I know is if they want to stay competetive, they need to go to a bigger bore centerline. A 3.55 inch bore put's a huge limiting factor on the size that can be obtained.

 

[ace]

If you hear him correctly he says he ran the Ford GT supercharged engine last year, And now this year his running this engine N/A and is running faster!

 

[95Grandtouring5.0]

Thats just the problem though, without boost a over head cam ford motor will not make nearly as much as a ls series motor without cam and head work, and if you put a decent set of heads and cam on a ls1 it will blow it out of the water. The only good thing about their over head cam technology is how strong the blocks are, and with all forged internals can handle a lot of boost and push major horsepower. Without boost it would be very hard to get one of those motors over 400hp n/a. Chevrolet and Dodge had their eye on the ball.

I don't know why people think the problem is due to the motor being OHC. OHC is the saving grace to these motors. If you designed a 281 cubic inch motor with a 3.55 bore size, and stuck with the 2V pushrod configuration it would mean an enormous power loss, it would be a DOG, substantially worse than our cars.

The 3V heads flow very comparably to the LS6 heads, that's measured on a flowbench set up for a 3.55" bore size. The 4V heads do even better. And this is done keeping enough velocity to maintain low end torque on a small displacement engine. Put those type heads on a 4" bore, reshape the chamber, relocate the valves a bit, it'll make more power AND more torque than the LSx and Hemi engines on the market. Bar none. Just look at the gains people are getting from these motors going to just a 3.7" bore size, most are gaining 30-40lb/ft throughout the ENTIRE rpm range with no other changes. 4" bore would be even better. And add enough displacement to take advantage of the potential headflow....it would murder anything GM and Chrysler have on the table right now. And it'd do it with less displacement, as long as the bore stays large.

For knowing so much about over head cam motors, you sure don't know that a 3 valve has better flow then a 4 valve. -_-. But im sorry to say, if ford could come out with a over head engine design that could blow chevrolet and hemi out of the water then it would of happened awhile ago. Regardless of whatever flow you claim ford over head motors to have, you probably could not show me one modular ford motor that makes over 500 horses by itself. I on the other hand could show you over a hundred ls series motors right off the bat. So until Ford actually makes this motor that you think will beat chevy and dodge. I'll just continue to laugh until something actually comes out that can do so. Until then. :hammer: :hammer: :lol: :rockyou:

 

[RabidPony]

I actually read a little blurp in one of the Mustang mags about this car. I'll dig it out later and tell you which one it was. That motor is a new prototype motor that Roush is testing for Ford. It's a 400ci 2V SOHC motor. The 5.4 that he mentioned is the motor that they ran in the car last year. It was a pretty much stock Ford GT motor converted to run in a Mustang.

Jono

 

[Jrgunn5150]

Ford could do alot of things, like made a better mod motor awhile ago, but they don't really want to spend 300 million developing a new motor so soon after the last I'm sure. I think they are just faced with the harsh reality that they are outgunned now.

 

[95Grandtouring5.0]

Ford could do alot of things, like made a better mod motor awhile ago, but they don't really want to spend 300 million developing a new motor so soon after the last I'm sure. I think they are just faced with the harsh reality that they are outgunned now.

Yeah I wouldnt spend 300 million on a new ohc design to just make a motor that can hang or be slightly better then chevrolet. That is a waste indeed. Thats why they should of expanded their ohv platform like Chevrolet and Dodge.

 

[Shocker98GT]

Thats just the problem though, without boost a over head cam ford motor will not make nearly as much as a ls series motor without cam and head work, and if you put a decent set of heads and cam on a ls1 it will blow it out of the water. The only good thing about their over head cam technology is how strong the blocks are, and with all forged internals can handle a lot of boost and push major horsepower. Without boost it would be very hard to get one of those motors over 400hp n/a. Chevrolet and Dodge had their eye on the ball.

I don't know why people think the problem is due to the motor being OHC. OHC is the saving grace to these motors. If you designed a 281 cubic inch motor with a 3.55 bore size, and stuck with the 2V pushrod configuration it would mean an enormous power loss, it would be a DOG, substantially worse than our cars.

The 3V heads flow very comparably to the LS6 heads, that's measured on a flowbench set up for a 3.55" bore size. The 4V heads do even better. And this is done keeping enough velocity to maintain low end torque on a small displacement engine. Put those type heads on a 4" bore, reshape the chamber, relocate the valves a bit, it'll make more power AND more torque than the LSx and Hemi engines on the market. Bar none. Just look at the gains people are getting from these motors going to just a 3.7" bore size, most are gaining 30-40lb/ft throughout the ENTIRE rpm range with no other changes. 4" bore would be even better. And add enough displacement to take advantage of the potential headflow....it would murder anything GM and Chrysler have on the table right now. And it'd do it with less displacement, as long as the bore stays large.

For knowing so much about over head cam motors, you sure don't know that a 3 valve has better flow then a 4 valve. -_-. But im sorry to say, if ford could come out with a over head engine design that could blow chevrolet and hemi out of the water then it would of happened awhile ago. Regardless of whatever flow you claim ford over head motors to have, you probably could not show me one modular ford motor that makes over 500 horses by itself. I on the other hand could show you over a hundred ls series motors right off the bat. So until Ford actually makes this motor that you think will beat chevy and dodge. I'll just continue to laugh until something actually comes out that can do so. Until then. :hammer: :hammer: :lol: :rockyou:

Just like you probably couldn't show me a Chevy 4.7 powered vehicle that makes 500 horsepower either, at least not streetably. There are n/a modular engines powering cars running low 9s, of course these are extreme race engines. The 3V heads don't outflow the 4V. It comes close on the intake side, but the exhaust side isn't there. It has a wider torque curve mainly due to the VCT, due to that I'd call it the better all around engine. They do flow well, they just don't have the displacement to take advantage of them, the only other way to get it would be RPM, which we can't really do either due to the bottom end using powdered metal rods. They aren't as rich as you think, it takes a ton of money to create a new engine platform, time to test it, etc. The reason we don't have a larger engine is because the platform was designed to be used in both FWD and RWD cars, which is why the mod motor is so much shorter than the older pushrod engines, and hence the 3.55" bore. I don't see the mystery in any of this personally, the bore is the limitation. OHC technology has no disadvantage to pushrods, you have less mass, with roller followers you can run a much more aggressive camshaft profile, plus with DOHC motors you have much more flexibility with variable cam technology to create a wider powerband. There really is no tradeoff there. The 4.6 2V engine is a good example of why the 3V and 4V configurations ARE so much better, and would be better even in a larger displacement engine. Compare apples to apples at least. If the 4.6 used that same bore, same 2V configuration with pushrods, it'd be worse. You literally can't cram any more valve into the heads of the engines, they're shrouded regardless, even the 4V engines the valves are shrouded but the extra valve area offsets it.

 

[95Grandtouring5.0]

I could rip most of that post apart, if I had the time and didn't have to leave for work in a few minutes, but I will basically say until Ford makes a motor that is better then Chevrolet lsX series motors and Dodges Hemi platform then ford is just not there. Thats why it takes a super charged dohc motor to keep up with a convetional pushrod n/a ls2,ls6,ls7, and soon the ls3.

 

[Shocker98GT]

I could rip most of that post apart, if I had the time and didn't have to leave for work in a few minutes, but I will basically say until Ford makes a motor that is better then Chevrolet lsX series motors and Dodges Hemi platform then ford is just not there. Thats why it takes a super charged dohc motor to keep up with a convetional pushrod n/a ls2,ls6,ls7, and soon the ls3.

I agree that Ford isn't there, that wasn't the point of my post. But considering what examples we have from other manufacturers (think Audi, BMW, Mercedes, Lexus, Toyota, etc.) and the already good head designs that Ford currently has plus the simple physics of what the real limitations the current platform has, they are well capable of doing it. Whether they choose to, I have no clue.

http://www.caranddriver.com/columns/8025/the-pushrod-engine-finally-gets-its-due.html

That article actually describes the advantages of the pushrod, not from a power standpoint, but others. But even GM's chief engineer for small blocks, Sam Winegarden, admits if the LS went with OHC and more valves per cylinder would net more valve area, more airflow, more POWER. The limiting factor is cost and complexity. The pushrod is a solid design for mass production with fewer compromises. But my stance on that is that Ford is ALREADY spending more money and putting such an effort into everything OHC even with the lacking results so I don't see a reason for them to stop going that far in the future

 

[Jrgunn5150]

My only point is the limitations of the current platform. The V10 is discontinued, Ford can't build a big burly gas truck motor now, not to mention the other two cars coming in two years that will blow the current Mustang fleet straight outta the water. ANd the fact that GM seems to have figured out that they too can put a blower on their motor's... It's time for Ford to admit that they screwed up, the big V8 isn't dead, and they need to at least re-design around the restrictions the current platform has saddled them with.