Vortech Questions

[AaRoN]

For $3500 you could buy a low mileage P.I. engine, send the heads off to be ported and assembled by someone like Fox Lake, get Comp or VT cams installed and you're right in the neighborhood of what a supercharged NPI engine would produce with a LOT more room to grow in the future, not to mention you'd have a newer engine.

Fail. For 3500 bucks, let's break it down.

Say you get the engine for 1k.
Cams are 500-600
Head porting is 2k oops, already broke the bank, for a final number (with a free tune) of around 300. Room to grow? Nope sorry, you're done, where are you going to grow to? I have yet to see a 2v over 350 rwhp, and those don't resemble something you would drive daily.

What are we making on faily stock NPI's with PI intakes and blower's? Right around 350... ROom to grow? I grew to 500 rwhp, other's grow even more.

You wanna play with the big boy's N/A, you better have some magical Wheaties to eat.

:agree:

 

[justinschmidt1]

+2....

these 4.6s cant make any power n/a

a stock npi with pi intake/ pi cams and 8-10 psi should be able to put down good numbers.

Forced induction is the way to go

 

[97woodward]

well, ive been searching for different used systems and prices for new systems. Would it be worth it to just wait until i saved up enough to get a new complete system? I think if i went that route i would probably buy the Procharger kit with the intercooler.
If i decided to do that what do you think the best route would be as far as getting PI heads? Right now I have new romeo PI cams and the livernois PI intake manifold kit. Neither have been installed, but i was planning on leaving my NPI heads as is.

If i decided to get the procharger kit would it be worth it to get Pi heads or my NPI heads ported? As far as the installation costs go, I would like to do the procharger install, tune, and head swap (or ported) all at once. What do you think a rough estimate on installation might be? I will call my mechanic and run it by him but I would like to know if It would even be in the ball park of what im willing to spend.

Would it be possible to buy the complete procharger kit with all necessary equipment, PI heads or NPI ported and tune for around $6000? Any ideas are appeciated

 

[97stanger]

97woodward,

going off the experience of my build, you wont even have to touch your stock non pi heads to max out that motor. I have an automatic and with stock non pi heads ill be at 400rwhp,400tq. I am running a sq trim, power pipe, 3.12 pulley, paxton front mount, PI intake and soon to be PI cams. Before the cams i was at 370/380 and like i said this is through an auto!! If i had a stick id pretty much already be at 400/400.

 

[Brian95SVT]

I'm doing mostly the same thing that blown97stanger is doing which is a very good route to go with plenty of room to grow.

 

[97woodward]

Yeah its a hard decision. If my car had around 50,000 miles on it then i would save up for a full procharger kit. But it has around 90k on it now and Im thinking that it might be a better , more affordable route to purchase the Vortech kit with no intercooler. I will have to decide. The shitty part is the installation costs for everything.

 

[Brian95SVT]

It doesn't matter.
Either one is a blower.
They just have a different base setup and all.
I mean yeah they are different blowers but they are both still at the end of the day blowers
and both can blow your motor or make it faster

Personally I was ALL about Procharger's and could care less about Vortech's but after looking into them Vortech's are cheaper in PRICE but still put out a damn good amount of power. Procharger's are cool cuz of the BOV but other than that and not having to tap a line for oil, they are still both badass blowers.. I'd just now choose a Vortech.
All of my friends here have Vortech's and wouldn't change it for the world.

 

[justinschmidt1]

arent vortechs having a lot of problems leaking lately?

 

[Shocker98GT]

Fail. For 3500 bucks, let's break it down.

Say you get the engine for 1k.
Cams are 500-600
Head porting is 2k oops, already broke the bank, for a final number (with a free tune) of around 300. Room to grow? Nope sorry, you're done, where are you going to grow to? I have yet to see a 2v over 350 rwhp, and those don't resemble something you would drive daily.

What are we making on faily stock NPI's with PI intakes and blower's? Right around 350... ROom to grow? I grew to 500 rwhp, other's grow even more.

You wanna play with the big boy's N/A, you better have some magical Wheaties to eat.

Engine say $1k, labor for porting heads (meaning he sends the head from the engine he just bought, not buying any) is around $600 to $900 depending on how aggressive you're wanting to go with the heads. Add $800 for cams/springs/retainers. So far around $2500. Get a competent engine builder to assemble the heads and degree the cams, get someone to tune it. Around 300rwhp, which is around what a supercharged NPI engine will make (not a PI intake/cammed NPI), with the flexibility to grow further via supercharging, nitrous, whatever your liking. Add the fact that a 300rwhp N/A car is going to be one hell of a lot more fun to drive all around compared to a centrifugal charged 300rwhp car just due to the torque curve being so much wider, it'd be the better daily driver setup. I wasn't saying a N/A engine will compete with a supercharged car in their optimal form, I was just saying the ported heads, cams, and the newer PI setup in general will be really close to a supercharged NPI car, with the added benefit of a newer engine and the capability to have a LOT more more power than an NPI car could puke out. Plus he has a daily driver, if he wants to go bigger in the future, he'll have his old block sitting to the side so he could slowly save up and build a forged bottom end, and have something he could switch out pretty quickly with only a weekend's downtime instead of shipping stuff off to get machined and assembled. It's win/win.

 

[justinschmidt1]

Fail. For 3500 bucks, let's break it down.

Say you get the engine for 1k.
Cams are 500-600
Head porting is 2k oops, already broke the bank, for a final number (with a free tune) of around 300. Room to grow? Nope sorry, you're done, where are you going to grow to? I have yet to see a 2v over 350 rwhp, and those don't resemble something you would drive daily.

What are we making on faily stock NPI's with PI intakes and blower's? Right around 350... ROom to grow? I grew to 500 rwhp, other's grow even more.

You wanna play with the big boy's N/A, you better have some magical Wheaties to eat.

Engine say $1k, labor for porting heads (meaning he sends the head from the engine he just bought, not buying any) is around $600 to $900 depending on how aggressive you're wanting to go with the heads. Add $800 for cams/springs/retainers. So far around $2500. Get a competent engine builder to assemble the heads and degree the cams, get someone to tune it. Around 300rwhp, which is around what a supercharged NPI engine will make (not a PI intake/cammed NPI), with the flexibility to grow further via supercharging, nitrous, whatever your liking. Add the fact that a 300rwhp N/A car is going to be one hell of a lot more fun to drive all around compared to a centrifugal charged 300rwhp car just due to the torque curve being so much wider, it'd be the better daily driver setup. I wasn't saying a N/A engine will compete with a supercharged car in their optimal form, I was just saying the ported heads, cams, and the newer PI setup in general will be really close to a supercharged NPI car, with the added benefit of a newer engine and the capability to have a LOT more more power than an NPI car could puke out. Plus he has a daily driver, if he wants to go bigger in the future, he'll have his old block sitting to the side so he could slowly save up and build a forged bottom end, and have something he could switch out pretty quickly with only a weekend's downtime instead of shipping stuff off to get machined and assembled. It's win/win.

im sure a n/a car wold be fun...but I bet a blown car is more fun haha..

with any kind of effort a blown npi should be making in the 350 range...

Pi intake, pi cams and run 8-10 psi and you should be about 350 rwhp

 

[Shocker98GT]

im sure a n/a car wold be fun...but I bet a blown car is more fun haha..

with any kind of effort a blown npi should be making in the 350 range...

Pi intake, pi cams and run 8-10 psi and you should be about 350 rwhp

Blown cars are a blast to drive, just saying if the centri car and the N/A car have similar peak power, the N/A car will be a whole lot stronger overall because centrifugal chargers have a linear boost curve and due to it a narrow powerband. Peak power numbers are pretty useless, especially when you're evaluating a street car. The top end surge is great, but the power under the curve isn't there. Naturally aspirated the torque curve is pretty flat comparatively.

 

[justinschmidt1]

im sure a n/a car wold be fun...but I bet a blown car is more fun haha..

with any kind of effort a blown npi should be making in the 350 range...

Pi intake, pi cams and run 8-10 psi and you should be about 350 rwhp

Blown cars are a blast to drive, just saying if the centri car and the N/A car have similar peak power, the N/A car will be a whole lot stronger overall because centrifugal chargers have a linear boost curve and due to it a narrow powerband. Peak power numbers are pretty useless, especially when you're evaluating a street car. The top end surge is great, but the power under the curve isn't there. Naturally aspirated the torque curve is pretty flat comparatively.

so your saying that a 300 whp n/a car is faster than a 300 whp blown car?

Im talking about 1/4 mile...

will a n/a 300 whp car make more power from like 4-6k than a blown car?


i dont understand why people are acting like top end power is useless on the street...like you cant reach anything over 4k on the street.

I hit 6k daily in my car.

everytime I get on it Im between 4-6k...

I dont know about you but I would rather have all my power be between 4-6k.

 

[97woodward]

is just buying the vortech blower worth it though? without the intercooler? I am trying to understand what I should be looking at? If it would mean a better chance of not blowing my engine by getting an intercooler than i would consider that route.

However just getting a vortech blower would be much cheaper than gettnig the full package.

 

[Shocker98GT]

so your saying that a 300 whp n/a car is faster than a 300 whp blown car?

Unless it's a n/a car making that 300rwhp at a ridiculously high RPM, like 7000s, the n/a car will no doubt be faster than a ->centrifugally<- supercharged car of the same power level. Don't get hung up on the HP number, the torque curve is where it's at. Compare a supercharged car that adds 150rwhp (even a roots/twin screw car with a flat torque curve) to a nitrous car that adds 150rwhp, the nitrous car will win because it has the advantage in torque. This is eliminating variables like traction, driver error, etc. because we're just objectively comparing power levels.

Im talking about 1/4 mile... will a n/a 300 whp car make more power from like 4-6k than a blown car?

If both of them can drive, same peak power levels, n/a car wins. Comparison: Let's just assume the n/a car and the centrifugal car make the same peak power at the exact same RPM for simplicity sake. The n/a car is making 300rwhp, it is making the necessary torque off it's own steam. In a street car, your horsepower peak is usually somewhere between 5000-6000rpm. Your torque peak will be in the 4000-5000 range usually. The torque that the engine is making at the horsepower peak is lower than the peak torque number the engine produces, so really the car is even stronger below the horsepower peak. Comparatively, we'll say it takes 10psi for the centrifugally boosted car to make 300rwhp at that same RPM, the torque curve increases linearly with the boost pressure, but unlike the n/a car, any rpm below peak boost level is progressively weaker as RPMs are lower. Same RPM, same power, n/a car no doubt wins. The way to think of it is: What does the centri car's engine produce MINUS the boost? They are separate entities, essentially. If you have to have 10psi boost to make the same power as a car that a car does naturally aspirated, than any time that you DON'T have 10psi of boost, you're getting smoked. With a centrifugal supercharger's boost curve, this is anywhere below peak RPM.

i dont understand why people are acting like top end power is useless on the street...like you cant reach anything over 4k on the street.

I hit 6k daily in my car.

everytime I get on it Im between 4-6k...

I dont know about you but I would rather have all my power be between 4-6k.

It's not really that, that's where the power is most usable. But if you have the same power output regardless, there's no sense in having that power ONLY at 4-6k when you can have it across the entire RPM range. :thumb:

 

[Johnny Langton]

so your saying that a 300 whp n/a car is faster than a 300 whp blown car?

Unless it's a n/a car making that 300rwhp at a ridiculously high RPM, like 7000s, the n/a car will no doubt be faster than a ->centrifugally<- supercharged car of the same power level. Don't get hung up on the HP number, the torque curve is where it's at. Compare a supercharged car that adds 150rwhp (even a roots/twin screw car with a flat torque curve) to a nitrous car that adds 150rwhp, the nitrous car will win because it has the advantage in torque. This is eliminating variables like traction, driver error, etc. because we're just objectively comparing power levels.

Im talking about 1/4 mile... will a n/a 300 whp car make more power from like 4-6k than a blown car?

If both of them can drive, same peak power levels, n/a car wins. Comparison: Let's just assume the n/a car and the centrifugal car make the same peak power at the exact same RPM for simplicity sake. The n/a car is making 300rwhp, it is making the necessary torque off it's own steam. In a street car, your horsepower peak is usually somewhere between 5000-6000rpm. Your torque peak will be in the 4000-5000 range usually. The torque that the engine is making at the horsepower peak is lower than the peak torque number the engine produces, so really the car is even stronger below the horsepower peak. Comparatively, we'll say it takes 10psi for the centrifugally boosted car to make 300rwhp at that same RPM, the torque curve increases linearly with the boost pressure, but unlike the n/a car, any rpm below peak boost level is progressively weaker as RPMs are lower. Same RPM, same power, n/a car no doubt wins. The way to think of it is: What does the centri car's engine produce MINUS the boost? They are separate entities, essentially. If you have to have 10psi boost to make the same power as a car that a car does naturally aspirated, than any time that you DON'T have 10psi of boost, you're getting smoked. With a centrifugal supercharger's boost curve, this is anywhere below peak RPM.

i dont understand why people are acting like top end power is useless on the street...like you cant reach anything over 4k on the street.

I hit 6k daily in my car.

everytime I get on it Im between 4-6k...

I dont know about you but I would rather have all my power be between 4-6k.

It's not really that, that's where the power is most usable. But if you have the same power output regardless, there's no sense in having that power ONLY at 4-6k when you can have it across the entire RPM range. :thumb:

Put the crack pipe-down.
I OWN a 300rwp modular that's N/A and I'll tell you now-you're gonna make peak power at approx 6000 rpms with a 300rwhp N/A modular,and you'll make peak power with the SC's modular that makes 300rwhp at around 5000rpms. The S/C car will be quicker-it'll make more torque across a wider RPM range-period.
JL

 

[Jrgunn5150]

is just buying the vortech blower worth it though? without the intercooler? I am trying to understand what I should be looking at? If it would mean a better chance of not blowing my engine by getting an intercooler than i would consider that route.

However just getting a vortech blower would be much cheaper than gettnig the full package.

Put the kit on as Vortec intends out of the box, don't screw with little pulley's, get it tuned, and you will never have a problem, and will make an easy 330 rwhp, or more (your exact mods slip my mind at the moment)

 

[justinschmidt1]

so your saying that a 300 whp n/a car is faster than a 300 whp blown car?

Unless it's a n/a car making that 300rwhp at a ridiculously high RPM, like 7000s, the n/a car will no doubt be faster than a ->centrifugally<- supercharged car of the same power level. Don't get hung up on the HP number, the torque curve is where it's at. Compare a supercharged car that adds 150rwhp (even a roots/twin screw car with a flat torque curve) to a nitrous car that adds 150rwhp, the nitrous car will win because it has the advantage in torque. This is eliminating variables like traction, driver error, etc. because we're just objectively comparing power levels.

Im talking about 1/4 mile... will a n/a 300 whp car make more power from like 4-6k than a blown car?

If both of them can drive, same peak power levels, n/a car wins. Comparison: Let's just assume the n/a car and the centrifugal car make the same peak power at the exact same RPM for simplicity sake. The n/a car is making 300rwhp, it is making the necessary torque off it's own steam. In a street car, your horsepower peak is usually somewhere between 5000-6000rpm. Your torque peak will be in the 4000-5000 range usually. The torque that the engine is making at the horsepower peak is lower than the peak torque number the engine produces, so really the car is even stronger below the horsepower peak. Comparatively, we'll say it takes 10psi for the centrifugally boosted car to make 300rwhp at that same RPM, the torque curve increases linearly with the boost pressure, but unlike the n/a car, any rpm below peak boost level is progressively weaker as RPMs are lower. Same RPM, same power, n/a car no doubt wins. The way to think of it is: What does the centri car's engine produce MINUS the boost? They are separate entities, essentially. If you have to have 10psi boost to make the same power as a car that a car does naturally aspirated, than any time that you DON'T have 10psi of boost, you're getting smoked. With a centrifugal supercharger's boost curve, this is anywhere below peak RPM.

i dont understand why people are acting like top end power is useless on the street...like you cant reach anything over 4k on the street.

I hit 6k daily in my car.

everytime I get on it Im between 4-6k...

I dont know about you but I would rather have all my power be between 4-6k.

It's not really that, that's where the power is most usable. But if you have the same power output regardless, there's no sense in having that power ONLY at 4-6k when you can have it across the entire RPM range. :thumb:

Put the crack pipe-down.
I OWN a 300rwp modular that's N/A and I'll tell you now-you're gonna make peak power at approx 6000 rpms with a 300rwhp N/A modular,and you'll make peak power with the SC's modular that makes 300rwhp at around 5000rpms. The S/C car will be quicker-it'll make more torque across a wider RPM range-period.
JL

lol...ok good....I thought he was wrong...especially if you look at the torque a turbo car makes!

 

[Shocker98GT]

Put the crack pipe-down.
I OWN a 300rwp modular that's N/A and I'll tell you now-you're gonna make peak power at approx 6000 rpms with a 300rwhp N/A modular,and you'll make peak power with the SC's modular that makes 300rwhp at around 5000rpms. The S/C car will be quicker-it'll make more torque across a wider RPM range-period.
JL

Apparently you've never seen a centrifugal supercharger's boost curve.

http://www.musclemustangfastfords.c...d_modular_motor_forced_induction/vortech.html

The Kenne Bell/Eaton superchargers have the same power curve a naturally aspirated car does, because you have boost across the RPM range. In other words it amplifies the torque curve that the naturally aspirated engine has. Any form of boost does this, but a centrifugal only really cranks out boost at really high RPMs. Comparing the different types of superchargers, the Vortech car has more peak power than any of the other supercharged cars, but look at the torque curve. It doesn't outpower the positive displacement supercharged engines until around 5700 rpm, and anywhere below that the positive displacement charged cars kill them in torque output. At 3000rpm it's a difference of nearly 200lb/ft of torque. The same is true of a well built N/A car, except with cams, heads, and intake, you're shifting the torque curve upward in the RPM range, but the torque curve is still much, much broader than a centrifugally supercharged car with the same power output.

You can't say "a S/C car" like it's apples to apples because a positive displacement supercharged car and a centrifugally supercharged car have completely different characteristics. If one said a Kenne Bell/Eaton charged car vs a N/A car with equal power output, then sure, the KB car would likely win because of the added low RPM torque. I was arguing that a CENTRIFUGAL car won't have the torque curve that a n/a car with equal power output would, which in almost every case is true.

 

[Shocker98GT]

N/A car, 307rwhp, 340rwtq. It is a 5.0 stroker but it's the only one I could find on their site, 5.0 stroker doesn't add THAT much N/A:

http://www.modularpowerhouse.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15087

But due to the stroker to balance it out I chose this plot which is a Vortech SQ car making 345rwhp/342rwtq

http://www.modularpowerhouse.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15636

Even with less peak power the N/A car STILL has a much broader torque curve.

 

[Johnny Langton]

N/A car, 307rwhp, 340rwtq. It is a 5.0 stroker but it's the only one I could find on their site, 5.0 stroker doesn't add THAT much N/A:

http://www.modularpowerhouse.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15087

But due to the stroker to balance it out I chose this plot which is a Vortech SQ car making 345rwhp/342rwtq

http://www.modularpowerhouse.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15636

Even with less peak power the N/A car STILL has a much broader torque curve.

Your comparisons are bogus. Different car,different engine,different dyno.
Your argument is absurd in this situation anyway-that article from the toilet paper rag in your previous post is from a "T" trim Vortech that is designed to make HP in the high RPM range for race engines,not the more street designed "S" trim. That comparison is also on a car with an intake designed for a roots blower-the Vortech kit simply uses an adapter plate-no wonder it's low on torque-the runners on that intake are all of about 4" long.
I OWN a N/A car that makes approx 300rwhp,and I've driven many other stone stock NPI modulars that have had a simply box-stock S-trim intake,and they ALL made 320-340rwhp with a correct tune installed, They also make lots more torque all over the place vs my heavily modified N/A engine.
This whole argument is stupid. Your point,while a decent one,is twisted by these "articles" you've read or seen that are lopsided in one way or another. You don't see the big picture.
JL