Would a 351 stroker have any road manners?

bennylava · Feb 3, 2023

Roughly 1 year from now, I will be swapping the engine in my 94 GT. It's old 302 is worn out, and it's just time for it to go. I want to replace it with something much greater, but I don't really want to lose much in the way of road manners. Would a 351 stroked to a 393 or a 427 have any kind of road manners? Or would that go out the window?

Given the price of building up a 351, it's looking like a Coyote might be a better idea. You get the road manners, and a giant upgrade over the old 302. And since you'd want to build up the 351, the price isn't too much more. There's some youtube videos where they're discussing 351's and most of the comments seem to estimate the price at around $18k. A coyote is around $20k swapped. So I'd like to hear you guys' thoughts on this. Thank you

96blak54 · Feb 3, 2023

We got a few guys here who have done the coyote swap and will never look back. They are more than happy with the results. They should chime in anytime about it. Also im thinking they did the swap for far less than $20k and thats with an aftermarket engine management system like holley offers. The coyote platform sure does make sense and does cogg the mind up pondering the best route to take.

Musturd · Feb 3, 2023

You can do a coyote swap for much less than 20k I’ve gotta push rod car and mod motor car . The one cars getting a gen 1f150 coyote . The other cars staying sbf. A stroker 9.5 deck car will be fine on the street depending on cam and intake manifold choice . A nice 408 with some good flowing heads will make huge torque and be a blast on the street .

bennylava · Feb 20, 2023

Well I still want to be able to do 80 mph at 1,800 rpm. I think that puts my gear ratio at somewhere around 2:73 but I'm not certain. So a 6 speed manual might be necessary for that. Easier to do with a coyote probably.

How much does the coyote swap actually cost? I'm guessing buying a wrecked donor car cuts down a lot on the final price.

cobrajeff96 · Feb 20, 2023

It's a loaded question because there's more than one answer. Really, it comes down to how much peace of mind you can budget for. For maximum peace of mind, you can buy all brand new stuff (motor, trans, ECU, etc.) but it's gonna be well north of $10k these days. And then on top of that you will get nickle and dimed with all the ancillary stuff that will have to go along with it like exhaust, possible suspension upgrades, wiring, tools, etc. I think that's the thing that winds up shocking most people as they're in the middle of the project, is all the unexpected costs that just unexpectedly rack up little by little, and before you know it you've almost doubled your budget and that's before it's even properly on the road (in a safe and reliable way).

On the other extreme is buying a used truck motor out of a scrapyard or something like that and sourcing the rest of the components through a community area like FB marketplace, ebay, forums, etc. I've literally seen people Coyote swap for as little as $4k and I've heard (but not seen) people do it for half that. I think luck will have a bit to do with it.

Far as gearing, that's all determined by trans ratios and the rear gear ratio. Just from my own experience, the T56 Mag with the 0.50 6th gear option is not only low on rpms but it's actually very impractical in almost every scenario. Ideal cruising rpm for these motors is around 2000 - 2500 rpm because they lack low end grunt. It's not like an LS motor. Just the truth.

If I had to redo anything, it'd be getting the T56 Mag with the .68 (I think) 6th gear. I did one of those free online rpm calculators based on ratios, power output, wheel size, etc. and 6th gear not even at redline was up at 350mph or something ridiculous with the current 0.50 setup I have. Talk about a waste. But other than that, I'd say I have the perfect street/highway setup because the closer ratios are down low so she scoots real good below around 130mph.

bennylava · Mar 1, 2023

cobrajeff96 said:
If I had to redo anything, it'd be getting the T56 Mag with the .68 (I think) 6th gear. I did one of those free online rpm calculators based on ratios, power output, wheel size, etc. and 6th gear not even at redline was up at 350mph or something ridiculous with the current 0.50 setup I have. Talk about a waste. But other than that, I'd say I have the perfect street/highway setup because the closer ratios are down low so she scoots real good below around 130mph.

Thanks for the reply! I can't remember the name of the 6 speed transmission that comes with the coyote. One would assume that it's a big improvement over the old Tremec T-56. Did you consider using the newer mustang 6 speed instead?

But a coyote swap for $4k wow that's pretty amazing. I expected to spend $8k-$12k. I know that having a donor car is a big help because it knocks a big dent in those things that nickel and dime you to death. And after it's all done, you're supposed to part out the donor car to recoup even more of the cost. So I was considering getting one that got killed, but still had a good engine and trans. Preferably a low mileage car if I could find it.

I did consider just rebuilding my old 302, but in the end I don't think it's worth it anymore. Those older engines have been rendered pretty much obsolete. With a lot of money and speed parts thrown at the 302, you're still going to get beat by a stock coyote. Throw a few speed parts at the coyote and the 302 hasn't got a prayer. Who wants to pay a lot of money and do a bunch of work, to not have a prayer?

At that point you should probably start considering a SOHC 4.6L. Apparently they had strong bottom ends and were known to make 650Hp with heads/cam/intake/boost. Probably get a lot more bang for your buck that way. At 650Hp I believe the 302 block would be dead.

cobrajeff96 · Mar 2, 2023

Not even the 4.6s are really worth the time and effort. An N/A Coyote with only a set of longtubes and a ported 2018 GT intake will be on par with a 8psi boosted 4.6. With better gas mileage and road manners.

Pretty much everyone ditches the MT-82 6sp transmission that comes with Coyotes and goes for the Tremec T-56 Magnum.

bennylava · Mar 2, 2023

What's wrong with the MT-82? No way to build it up a bit tougher? Or just too expensive

cobrajeff96 · Mar 2, 2023

I've heard of people getting them opened up and built (to a small degree) and there's also the Blowfish Racing direct mount shifter modification which is the real point of contention with the MT82 remote mount as it ships from factory, but I think (don't quote me) that the consensus is it's a lost cause. It is made in China after all.

bennylava · Mar 3, 2023

cobrajeff96 said:
I've heard of people getting them opened up and built (to a small degree) and there's also the Blowfish Racing direct mount shifter modification which is the real point of contention with the MT82 remote mount as it ships from factory, but I think (don't quote me) that the consensus is it's a lost cause. It is made in China after all.

That sucks... what all is involved in getting the T56 Magnum to work with the coyote? Probably a $500 quicktime bell housing, deleting stuff from the coyote computer, shortened driveshaft, the usual I guess.

But can the T56 be made to shift as nicely as a modern manual transmission? I've heard people love MGW brand shifters. Maybe that could help some. I've got the T5 in my 94 GT and it's not so great.

cobrajeff96 · Mar 3, 2023

Nothing needs to be done to the Magnum as far as power handling and shift quality. It's great out of the gate.

You could do a quicktime steel BH but it's only necessary for sanctioned racing events. The guys over at D&D Performance gave me a thick, factory cast aluminum BH that plugged right up to the Yote and it looks great, even has holes predrilled for hydraulic slave cylinder which helped in the long run because that's what I now use. Yea, depending on rear suspension setup, an altered length driveshaft may be necessary. Luckily for me D&D Performance knew exactly what to sell me based on what I told them. I didn't have to take any measurements... they just knew. Excellent people to work with I must say.

If you're using a FRPP control pack and it's a manual trans version (Gen2 and lower) it doesn't matter. But the Gen 3 I think is only for 10sp auto. The guys over at Power by the Hour can answer those questions for you.

The MT-82 can work with the Coyote but only in its stock power output. It's days are numbered when you start adding power over factory baseline or doing extreme stuff at the dragstrip on slicks.

bennylava · Mar 4, 2023

I like the 3:55 gears I have now, but I'd also like to change from 17" rims to 18" rims. Without sacrificing much tire. So would the T-56 be much of an upgrade over my T5?

I have a thing about wanting to do highway speeds at low RPM's. I want to set the cruise control at 85 MPH and have the engine only turning 1700-1900 RPM. I saw that you mentioned changing the 6th gear. What would you change that gear to? I am not sure if 6th is the only overdrive gear in that trans. Maybe you get speedy 1-5 gears, and then the car falls on it's face in 6th.

ttocs · Mar 4, 2023

I have 3:55s with the close ratio t56 and 19" wheels and love it. It isn't that low in the rpms at 85 but it isn't high enough to be annoying in my opinion.

cobrajeff96 · Mar 4, 2023

FWIW, the T56 Magnum is considered a "double overdrive" transmission (not sure about the regular factory spec T56 as far as its nomenclature). But I'm quite sure the regular T56 from Ford won't be having a 0.50 6th gear which makes rpms hella low at highway cruising speeds and my rear diff is a 4.10 which is kind of on the high side. You can talk to D&D Performance if you're interested in going full Magnum T56 and they could probably spec out a custom gear set. But with Ford modular motors in general, they do not have a lot of low end grunt so if you ever need to put power down and get moving when you're already at highway speeds, you'll have to downshift out of 6th with such a low ratio. I kind of regret going for a 0.50 6th gear looking back, it's kind of a wasted opportunity. You're not in the optimal power band unless you're well over 100mph. But they do offer two variants of the Magnum, one close ratio and a wide ratio. Close has a much more usable sixth but the lower gears are taller so you don't haul ass off the line as fast as the version I have. But the higher gears are shorter. I suppose it's just a preference issue. I love the shorter low gears in mine. I guess the only solution is to have someone custom build a shorter 6th when you order it.

bennylava · Mar 8, 2023

ttocs said:
I have 3:55s with the close ratio t56 and 19" wheels and love it. It isn't that low in the rpms at 85 but it isn't high enough to be annoying in my opinion.

Since I want to run 275/40/R18's, it looks like I might want to change my gear ratio to 3:23 for the car to run 1800 RPM at around 85 Mph. That's with the T56 and the .50 6th gear. Don't know if that would really help the car be "fast" though.

Also, was the t56 known for that whine/howl?

ttocs · Mar 8, 2023

mine is nice and quiet.

cobrajeff96 · Mar 8, 2023

Not sure about the original T56 from factory, but every T56 Magnum in existence has a characteristic drone in certain harmonic frequency octaves. It's kinda annoying but if you learn its ins & outs you can minimize it by not lugging the engine with a heavy foot at low rpm. That's what I've found.

bennylava · Mar 15, 2023

cobrajeff96 said:
Not sure about the original T56 from factory, but every T56 Magnum in existence has a characteristic drone in certain harmonic frequency octaves. It's kinda annoying but if you learn its ins & outs you can minimize it by not lugging the engine with a heavy foot at low rpm. That's what I've found.

And add a lot of Resonix (the best) sound deadener. At least then you wouldn't hear the noise from inside the car.

cobrajeff96 · Mar 15, 2023

You can't get rid of it entirely. It's a tradeoff between extra weight and quiet. To get the noise completely gone you'd have to put in some major work, time, thought, money, etc.