5.4 w/ tfs goodies question

[97LSxGT]

Did a search and not really finding what i need.

My GT has over 180k on the odo. and probably the same on the motor(idk. i got it with 173 on it)


I was gonna drop the TFS heads/intake combo on the 4.6 but since it smoking on take offs i figure its time for a rebuild or new motor.

On the 5.4s i know the heads will fit but does the TFS intake fit as well. Im ASSUMING it does but just making sure before i buy and drop it on.

Hopefully it will clear my hood ( i have a 3.5" cobra R hood )

Planning on a 10.5:1 or so comp ratio with custom nitrous cams and a shot of gas. i think itd be a fun build


ALSO
theres a BRAND NEW 3v 5.4 shortblock from ford on the local CL. it claims the 3vs have a billet crank. anybody know what the rotating assembly is rated at? or at least the crank?



thanks yall!

 

[Bullitt5339]

The 5.4 intakes are 5.4 specific, a 4.6 intake won't fit without adapter plates.

As far as a 2V 5.4, don't waste your time. Plenty have tried it, and while the 5.4 makes more torque down low, on the track the 4.6 with the same mods typically will outrun the 5.4 swap. The small bore, long stroke isn't a good combination for a performance engine in the 2V. Valve shrouding caused by the small bores negates the gains caused by the longer stroke, not to mention to bore/stroke ratio is more conducive to a low end stump puller, which is why the 5.4 2V was put in a truck to begin with.

Now, when you add 4V heads, they can compensate a bit for the valve shrouding problem the 2V has, and it can make more power. That's why the new 5.0 makes so much power, they addressed valve shrouding by giving the engine more bore size and on top of that, they stuck with the 4V heads. That's also why 5.0L stroker kits (non big-bore) don't make considerable improvement over a standard 4.6 while the big bore 5.0 kits make huge gains.

As far as the 3V, don't know much about them at all, they've never impressed me much.

 

[Willis_98GT]

The 3v motor would be a fun build, but you will have to mod alot of stuff from what ive seen/heard.. probably wouldnt be worth it in the long run either, you should look up a modmax assembly for your current block and have it all cleaned up and slap some tfs heads on

steer clear of the 5.4, bullit5339 is right about everything he said.

 

[JerZeyStangz]

Thanks for technical feedback on the 5.4's!

 

[Bullitt5339]

No problem, I've just seen way too many people over the years wasting their money on 5.4 2V swaps just to stay the same or typically get slower.

 

[97LSxGT]

I appreciate it guys just trying to do stuff on a budget! One of the things i dont like about the 5.4 is that they arent as rev happy as the 4.6 either. Im pricing out stuff now. Found a 04 cobra block cheap. Gonna talk to a local Ford racing shop that my dad did some on. Also have a friend that runs a import shop that has his distrubutors on the hunt. Just got to get my money right and start the build. Ready to have the faster street car in town again! Haha

 

[00stroker]

Not Exactly...

The 5.4 intakes are 5.4 specific, a 4.6 intake won't fit without adapter plates.

As far as a 2V 5.4, don't waste your time. Plenty have tried it, and while the 5.4 makes more torque down low, on the track the 4.6 with the same mods typically will outrun the 5.4 swap. The small bore, long stroke isn't a good combination for a performance engine in the 2V. Valve shrouding caused by the small bores negates the gains caused by the longer stroke, not to mention to bore/stroke ratio is more conducive to a low end stump puller, which is why the 5.4 2V was put in a truck to begin with.

Now, when you add 4V heads, they can compensate a bit for the valve shrouding problem the 2V has, and it can make more power. That's why the new 5.0 makes so much power, they addressed valve shrouding by giving the engine more bore size and on top of that, they stuck with the 4V heads. That's also why 5.0L stroker kits (non big-bore) don't make considerable improvement over a standard 4.6 while the big bore 5.0 kits make huge gains.

As far as the 3V, don't know much about them at all, they've never impressed me much.

+1 for identifying the main issue with these (and other 2v) modular engines - valve shrouding. -.5 for propagating the myth that long-stroke engines can't / don't make power. In fact, if you eliminate the valve shrouding issue (by going with 4v or aftermarket 2v heads), there is little to no difference between the power output of a 5.4 and a 5.3 BB or a 5.0 BB and a 5.0 stroker with similar mods.

Google around a bit for builds using the TFS heads, good cams, and good intakes and you will find that BB and stroker engines of similar size are generally close to dead even (N/A). Ditto the 5.4 vs. the 5.3 BB/stroker. The primary reason for staying clear of the 5.4 has nothing to do with rod angles / side loading or any of the other internet builder nonsense concerning long stroke engines - and everything to do with an abysmal aftermarket for the engine. There is exactly 1 semi-affordable intake for the 5.4 2v in a Mustang or CV - the HPS - and it is a compromise, when compared with something like the Victor Jr, and that's if you can find one. There are no off-the-shelf long tubes. Combine these two factors and you start with an automatic 25 - 30 HP penalty over a similar size shorter stroke 5.3 BB - more in higher RPM applications.

Those with the pockets and patience to wait for the HPS intake and combine it with TFS heads and a set of custom cams from someone like Nick over at MHS have shown that the 5.4 is capable of producing great power. Sadly, Edelbrock will probably never produce the Victor Jr for the 5.4 2v at this point, so a 5.4 2v will always leave a little on the table (unless you are willing to spring a bunch of cash for a $heetmetal intake like the Logan).

 

[ScottyDsntKnow]

IMO, build yourself a new 2V and put a supercharger on it. The modulars are never going to compete in the NA world except for the 5.0s and even those will get skull****ed by a boosted and properly built 2V.

If you are still dead set on a 5.4, there is a user on the Corral named birdman941 IIRC... just do a username search or something and you'll find him. He sells a fully ready to go 5.4 forged DOHC with ported C heads, modified Aussie intake, custom mid length headers, K member spacers to get it to fit and a bunch of other little custom things to make it pretty painless. I think the whole thing with the motor included is like $6500 or just $2800 sans motor. He runs the same combo he sells and does 385whp all motor. I would not get the 2V 5.4 simply because of the intake selection and the only way to get longtubes is to do a 5 person group buy on one of the other mustang forums and have them custom made by a guy who has a jig to do them. There was a shop back in the day that custom built them but they were pricey.

With that said a stock PI 2V with a supercharger can safely make 400/400 all day and is much easier/cheaper as PI motors are a dime a dozen.

 

[the.greg]

+1 for identifying the main issue with these (and other 2v) modular engines - valve shrouding. -.5 for propagating the myth that long-stroke engines can't / don't make power. In fact, if you eliminate the valve shrouding issue (by going with 4v or aftermarket 2v heads), there is little to no difference between the power output of a 5.4 and a 5.3 BB or a 5.0 BB and a 5.0 stroker with similar mods.

Google around a bit for builds using the TFS heads, good cams, and good intakes and you will find that BB and stroker engines of similar size are generally close to dead even (N/A). Ditto the 5.4 vs. the 5.3 BB/stroker. The primary reason for staying clear of the 5.4 has nothing to do with rod angles / side loading or any of the other internet builder nonsense concerning long stroke engines - and everything to do with an abysmal aftermarket for the engine. There is exactly 1 semi-affordable intake for the 5.4 2v in a Mustang or CV - the HPS - and it is a compromise, when compared with something like the Victor Jr, and that's if you can find one. There are no off-the-shelf long tubes. Combine these two factors and you start with an automatic 25 - 30 HP penalty over a similar size shorter stroke 5.3 BB - more in higher RPM applications.

Those with the pockets and patience to wait for the HPS intake and combine it with TFS heads and a set of custom cams from someone like Nick over at MHS have shown that the 5.4 is capable of producing great power. Sadly, Edelbrock will probably never produce the Victor Jr for the 5.4 2v at this point, so a 5.4 2v will always leave a little on the table (unless you are willing to spring a bunch of cash for a $heetmetal intake like the Logan).

IMO, build yourself a new 2V and put a supercharger on it. The modulars are never going to compete in the NA world except for the 5.0s and even those will get skull****ed by a boosted and properly built 2V.

If you are still dead set on a 5.4, there is a user on the Corral named birdman941 IIRC... just do a username search or something and you'll find him. He sells a fully ready to go 5.4 forged DOHC with ported C heads, modified Aussie intake, custom mid length headers, K member spacers to get it to fit and a bunch of other little custom things to make it pretty painless. I think the whole thing with the motor included is like $6500 or just $2800 sans motor. He runs the same combo he sells and does 385whp all motor. I would not get the 2V 5.4 simply because of the intake selection and the only way to get longtubes is to do a 5 person group buy on one of the other mustang forums and have them custom made by a guy who has a jig to do them. There was a shop back in the day that custom built them but they were pricey.

With that said a stock PI 2V with a supercharger can safely make 400/400 all day and is much easier/cheaper as PI motors are a dime a dozen.

I agree with both of yall, but this thread is over a year old! Wonder if the op ever made a move?

 

[BigBore96]

This thread is old as shit. But... there is some new BAD information.

1.A 5.4 2v will make basically the SAME power as a 4.6 2v. Same if you had it with a 5.4 4v. They do make more torque but not power.
2. By going to a 4v from a 2v while keeping a stockish bore. You DO NOT eliminate valve shrouding. It's still there and holding back power. The only way to correct is is doing a Big bore.
3. Here is how on similiar setups power will go. Meaning it's a rule of thumb and iit works the same with either 2v/4v/etc
4.6 < 5.4 (Barely) < 4.6 Stroker < 4.6 big bore < 4.6 stroker big bore < 5.4 stroker big bore.

Basically. Switching to a 5.4 is not worth the hassle that you go through for a tad bit more torque.

 

[00stroker]

This thread is old as shit. But... there is some new BAD information.

1.A 5.4 2v will make basically the SAME power as a 4.6 2v. Same if you had it with a 5.4 4v. They do make more torque but not power.
2. By going to a 4v from a 2v while keeping a stockish bore. You DO NOT eliminate valve shrouding. It's still there and holding back power. The only way to correct is is doing a Big bore.
3. Here is how on similiar setups power will go. Meaning it's a rule of thumb and iit works the same with either 2v/4v/etc
4.6 < 5.4 (Barely) < 4.6 Stroker < 4.6 big bore < 4.6 stroker big bore < 5.4 stroker big bore.

Basically. Switching to a 5.4 is not worth the hassle that you go through for a tad bit more torque.

While I might agree with your conclusion, I don't agree with how you got there:

1. Torque IS power (or rather power is just torque over distance). If two engines make the same power, but one more torque, I'll take the one that makes more torque. Anyhow, if you eliminate the flow restrictions in the intake, heads and exhaust, the 5.4 makes more power than the 4.6 by virtue of the added volume.
2. Yes, in some cases, a big bore will help, but changing heads does narrow the gap considerably or eliminate it altogether. If you put TFS heads and a decent intake on a narrow bore 5.4 and a big bore 5.3, they perform approximately the same - and any difference is entirely attributable to better supporting parts (e.g. intake, exhaust). If you put 4v heads on a 5.4 or a big bore 5.3 again, the difference becomes trivial enough to make the extra $$ of the BB less appealing - at least in N/A apps.
3. "4.6 < 5.4 (Barely) < 4.6 Stroker:" contradicts what you've said elsewhere in your post. The 4.6 stroker has the same bore as the 4.6 / 5.4, so why would the 4.6 stroker make more power than both the 4.6 and the 5.4? Because of intake and header choices, pure and simple. This has NOTHING to do with intrinsic relationships between bore and stroke - at least not at the RPMs these engines typically turn - and EVERYTHING to do with flow restrictions in the intake (mostly) and exhaust. Most of the 5.4 builds out there use PI heads, adapter plates and the PI intake or maybe the 4.6 Victor Jr, and shorties or iron manifolds vs. long-tubes. Adapters move the injector, relative to the intake valve, costing efficiency. Shorties reduce scavenging effects of the exhaust pulse, relative to long tubes. PI heads don't flow enough to feed the the 4.6, let alone the 5.4 (BB does help here, if you want / need to stay with stock heads).

Google around a bit and you can find 5.4 2v builds done right (as right as the aftermarket will allow) that are putting down close to 400 whp N/A with TFS heads, shorties and reasonable cam profiles. It's just a hassle to do it, because the aftermarket isn't there.

Having said all this, I have a pair of TFS heads in the garage waiting to go on a 5.4 block that I am considering swapping for a BB 5.3, mainly because I refuse to use adapter plates and have been waiting 7 months for an intake (and I already have a 3.75" crank and rods I can reuse, if I'm willing to have my car down a little longer).

 

[BigBore96]

Trust me I know the aftermarket is not there. Modulars have next to 0 aftermarket. If there was an aftermarket the way things make power wise would be completely different. The fact is, at the end of the day, a 5.4 makes shit for power. A 5.3 will make more power than a 5.4. The 5.4 is plagued with no support more so than the 4.6. Maybe now that people are adapting the new 5.0 boss intakes to the 5.4 that will change. But until then, almost any intake you throw at the 5.4 does nothing but hurt it.

1. I didn't say torque wasn't power. You can make the same/more power with a 4.6 platform without any of the hassles of a 5.4. Just because it has a tad more torque doesn't mean it will win. It comes down to power curves. Like I said though, it's a rule of thumb. I didn't say you can't make decent power with a 5.4 but just as you might as well stick to a 4.6 platform.

2. A big bore, will make more power than either a 4.6 stroker or a 5.4.

3. Reason being it's that order is simple. I'm referring to real life, with real parts. The aftermarket for 5.4 and pretty much 4.6 for that matter is shit. I should have put 4.6 stroker (barely). But either way, in real world applications that is a simple rule of thumb for what will make the power because of what you can possibly build it with. Rule of thumb implies there are exceptions. The fact of the matter is. A big bore will out perform a stroker. I don't know where you are looking, but look it up. Big bore > stroker. Modular platforms alrdy have a long stroke and a tiny bore. Making the stroke longer is not what they need.

And honestly, if you are considering a 5.3 or a 5.4.... You obviously have not done enough research. Do the 5.3 and don't bother wasting your time. The 5.4 will make less power. Less power.... More hassle. It's a trend.... odd. Why will it make less power? 0 support and a much smaller bore. If you have the money and want power and you do not do a big bore, you haven't done your research.

And a 5.4 with close to 400hp is not impressive especially with aftermarket heads. There are tons of guys who have 4.6's either stroked, BB, etc and make that (with the 5.3 making the most power from that group) Hell, there are guys who make close to 350 with pi heads (and NPI heads for that matter). So you can't make another 40-50hp with another 50 cubes alone? let alone aftermarket wedge heads? Reallly? Sounds like a waste of time...

 

[00stroker]

And honestly, if you are considering a 5.3 or a 5.4.... You obviously have not done enough research. Do the 5.3 and don't bother wasting your time. The 5.4 will make less power. Less power.... More hassle. It's a trend.... odd. Why will it make less power? 0 support and a much smaller bore. If you have the money and want power and you do not do a big bore, you haven't done your research.

And a 5.4 with close to 400hp is not impressive especially with aftermarket heads. There are tons of guys who have 4.6's either stroked, BB, etc and make that (with the 5.3 making the most power from that group) Hell, there are guys who make close to 350 with pi heads (and NPI heads for that matter). So you can't make another 40-50hp with another 50 cubes alone? let alone aftermarket wedge heads? Reallly? Sounds like a waste of time...

Believe me, I have looked. And there are no 4.6-based (big-bore or otherwise) engines out there making any more power than similarly equipped 5.4s. The problem is in the words "similarly equipped." While the aftermarket isn't great for modulars in general, it is 10x better for the shorter deck motors than for the 5.4. With the TFS heads, the issue in building the 5.4 2v is no longer head flow / valve shrouding, but in finding an intake to flow enough to feed the motor through the heads. Even those who generally don't recommend building a 5.4 (Nick McKinney, for example) cite lack of market support as the primary reason to avoid the tall-deck motors.

At the end of the day, a 5.3 BB with TFS heads, Stage 4 cams, Edelbrock Intake, and Long tubes made about 400 whp (unless you carb it). A 5.4 with Stage 3 cams, TFS heads, HPS intake, and shorties made 380. The intake, exhaust, and cams are more than enough to account for the difference.

If we are restricted to PI heads (ported or otherwise), I am in total agreement - the BB will open up the flow enough to make a noticeable difference. With aftermarket heads the benefit of the BB diminishes. I would rather do a tall deck than a stroker to keep more of the piston in the hole, if possible. A 5.8 BB would be awesome, but I don't have that kind of $$ to throw around.