5.4 ?????

josh0092002 · Nov 29, 2007

ive been reading on here about 5.4l engine swaps, an now the 5.4 2v is supposed to be a direct replacement for the 4.6 2v. if so my questions are? is the 5.4 nothing more than a stroked out 4.6, if its so easy to just swap out why havent more people done it already. and well why do more people perfer to stay 4.6 if the 5.4 is so much better. i understand the aftermarket is not up on the 5.4 like it is the 4.6. but i would love to know as much as i can about the doing such an engine swap, anything at all would be great. thanks again

r3dn3ck · Nov 30, 2007

Yeah... they're pretty well a bolt in. There are only very minor mods that are needed.

I have one. Just did the very first baseline dyno run yesterday. It's running hella rich and needs more timing but you can see the potential. NA 4.6's just can't expect numbers like that.

Why hasn't it been done more? Because the aftermarket wants the things that will sell well. People only care about peak numbers so the parts makers only make things that get huge peak gains. If people knew more about performance they'd be going for area under the curves which is where the 5.4 shines. It's a tight fit but it does in fact fit just fine.

I'm about to head down to get the first set of longtubes made and those should come to market pretty soon. I've already worked out the intake design with HPS and they're bringing the new 5.4 specific intake to market really soon here. Other than that, you'll want ported heads and nice cams to take advantage of the extra cubes. Longtubes seem to be worth about 30rwhp or so with a nicely cammed motor so I'd plan on including a set in your build up.

FWIW, my numbers look kinda low but I gotta tell you, the actual performance is tire shredding and a lot of fun. Can't wait to put a better tune on it and run it again.

jfor441 · Nov 30, 2007

r3dn3ck said:
Yeah... they're pretty well a bolt in. There are only very minor mods that are needed.

I have one. Just did the very first baseline dyno run yesterday. It's running hella rich and needs more timing but you can see the potential. NA 4.6's just can't expect numbers like that.

Why hasn't it been done more? Because the aftermarket wants the things that will sell well. People only care about peak numbers so the parts makers only make things that get huge peak gains. If people knew more about performance they'd be going for area under the curves which is where the 5.4 shines. It's a tight fit but it does in fact fit just fine.

I'm about to head down to get the first set of longtubes made and those should come to market pretty soon. I've already worked out the intake design with HPS and they're bringing the new 5.4 specific intake to market really soon here. Other than that, you'll want ported heads and nice cams to take advantage of the extra cubes. Longtubes seem to be worth about 30rwhp or so with a nicely cammed motor so I'd plan on including a set in your build up.

FWIW, my numbers look kinda low but I gotta tell you, the actual performance is tire shredding and a lot of fun. Can't wait to put a better tune on it and run it again.

Holy crap man! Looks like you are spraying nitrous there! Nice dyno graph! Imagine if you had a more aggressive cam! Will be interesting to see the difference when you get 5.4 intake and longtubes on your car to see how much more it makes. Very nice!

josh0092002 · Nov 30, 2007

holy hell thats impressive, i got curious about the 5.4 swap after reading a thread on here about it. i didnt even know is was really that easy. so looks like thats what ill plan on then, cause ive asked so many stupid qestions on here about big performace stuff on the 4.6 when really doing a 5.4 swap would be great, i mean from my understanding its way cheaper to find, and just as easy to put in. so with a set of ported head, an a really good/mild cam, an long tubes, what kinda numbers would that put out? either way i think it would be great fun with that much needed extra torque the 4.6 lacks.

r3dn3ck · Dec 1, 2007

it's a tire eating machine now. no lack of grunt at all. I have comp xe270's which is what you might call a stage 2 cam. If I went all the way up to the 274 or 278 then things would be a little taller yet on the hp line but not enough to justify their radical idle for me. I have Fox lake stage 2 ported heads too. I know there's at least 10-15hp left on the table from the adapter plates messing up the air flow path and fuel mixing, probably another 10-15 in getting the tune just right after that. Longtubes have shown themselves to be worth 20-30rwhp in this application but it's currently very expensive to put longtubes in as they have to be custom. I'll be embarking on a trip to solve that problem pretty soon.

I know you can make 340-360rwhp and similar tq with a properly set up engine and cams on the hot side. I'm hoping to end up with 315-325hp and 340-350tq . I don't see much problem hitting that mark with the upcoming mods.

FWIW...if you're going to do this make sure you have an aftermarket upper plenum and 75mm tb.

josh0092002 · Dec 1, 2007

it's a tire eating machine now. no lack of grunt at all. I have comp xe270's which is what you might call a stage 2 cam. If I went all the way up to the 274 or 278 then things would be a little taller yet on the hp line but not enough to justify their radical idle for me. I have Fox lake stage 2 ported heads too. I know there's at least 10-15hp left on the table from the adapter plates messing up the air flow path and fuel mixing, probably another 10-15 in getting the tune just right after that. Longtubes have shown themselves to be worth 20-30rwhp in this application but it's currently very expensive to put longtubes in as they have to be custom. I'll be embarking on a trip to solve that problem pretty soon.

I know you can make 340-360rwhp and similar tq with a properly set up engine and cams on the hot side. I'm hoping to end up with 315-325hp and 340-350tq . I don't see much problem hitting that mark with the upcoming mods.

FWIW...if you're going to do this make sure you have an aftermarket upper plenum and 75mm tb.

thats a good bit of hp/tq there for just a NA motor right? an all that fits under ur stock hood, iam guessing ur using the pi intake. damn that all really sounds to good to be true. hows the power band on it, i know its not really a high reving engine but i know its got to pull like a mofo for awhile. an just to satisfy my curiosity is it possible to put some kinda forced induction on that type of motor and keep it all under at least a 3in cowl hood? i would love to know as much as possible on all of this 5.4 stuff, this is tooo freakin cool man.

r3dn3ck · Dec 1, 2007

thats a good bit of hp/tq there for just a NA motor right? an all that fits under ur stock hood, iam guessing ur using the pi intake. damn that all really sounds to good to be true. hows the power band on it, i know its not really a high reving engine but i know its got to pull like a mofo for awhile. an just to satisfy my curiosity is it possible to put some kinda forced induction on that type of motor and keep it all under at least a 3in cowl hood? i would love to know as much as possible on all of this 5.4 stuff, this is tooo freakin cool man.

it's ok... that's just the first run though. I'm hoping for better.

yep. all under my stock hood.

Nope.. I use the HPS Hardball'r 4.6L on it right now. The new HPS 5.4L Hardball'r will be on it pretty soon and fits under the hood even better.

Power band is bigger than the 4.6L. Tq comes on basically at idle and gets right nasty about 4K rpm. HP climbs steadily from 2K-5500+. I've not yet run it to the full redline but I'm going to take it to 6K tomorrow and see what we get there. It pulls about like a jet. First and second gears are just decorations... there's no traction in them. Blowers will work but bracketry is uncertain for most centrifugal units. Other methods turn in brutal power curves and hood requirements are varied among roots/PD type.

josh0092002 · Dec 3, 2007

ok first off iam loving this. lol second please man tell me everything i will an might need to do this swap. cause the first chance i get iam going for it. i plan on following ur advice, in while doing the swap, getting the heads ported and a good set of cams in. an long tubes as well. an then way after all thats done an good to go, maybe one day add a blower, but iam just worried about getting that thing in between my cars fenders right now, lol

jfor441 · Dec 4, 2007

josh0092002 said:
ok first off iam loving this. lol second please man tell me everything i will an might need to do this swap. cause the first chance i get iam going for it. i plan on following ur advice, in while doing the swap, getting the heads ported and a good set of cams in. an long tubes as well. an then way after all thats done an good to go, maybe one day add a blower, but iam just worried about getting that thing in between my cars fenders right now, lol

Here is as much info as you will find anywhere concerning the 5.4 swap. http://www.mustangboards.com/modular-4-6l-tech/9238-anyone-intrested-5-4l-swaps-here-need-you-opine.html Notice the thread starter. Make sure you read from start to finish. You will spend a couple of hours reading it all. Lots of good info.

r3dn3ck · Dec 4, 2007

Thanks jfor.

The swap is super easy. You'll need:

1 5.4L longblock w/ front cover, tensioner and valve covers.
1 HPS 5.4L intake (soon to come out) or 1 set Reichard Racing intake adapter plates (you'll have to call to get them.. maybe sometime in 08 as they're kinda busy last I heard.)
Assorted hose and fittings for rear heater hose

After that it's all gravy. Anything you do over an above the base minimum swap which is just what's above nets definite gains in SOTP and dyno performance.

Dan Simons (originator of the swap and the first set of plates) squeaked out 215/306 right out of the gate on the base swap. I came out of the gate with 279/332 and it's not even close to tuned yet. Dan made 20hp/tq with just with a little tuning. Remember too that all those bullcarp bolt-on bits that don't do anything much for 4.6's.. they actually return gains on 5.4's so every single one becomes another level you can hit before going to the blower.

Honestly.. a blower on this car would make it almost undriveably fast. It's a pretty stout motor as it sits NA. If you're really hot to trot, shoot me a PM with your email addy and I'll send you Dan Simons original article which is basically a how-to guide for the whole project.

voidfinger · Dec 6, 2007

well i'm re interested in the swap now lol. I was thinking of building a 4.6 4v but the motor i was going to go with fell threw... soooo looks like i'm on the trail of a 5.4 again. So Red, what do you think is the base min. for the swap. What would just the motor with adapter plates, stock headers, and a tune get you? I don't have a great deal of cash to throw sooo.

r3dn3ck · Dec 6, 2007

base minimum you should be able to pull off for just a few hundred bucks over the cost of your motor. Basically all you'll need is fluids, some fittings and hoses (about 30 bucks worth), adapter plates, and a flywheel.

Figure 375 for plates, 70 bucks worth of fluids/hose/fittings, 100 dollars for a flywheel, 25 for a new TOB (might as well). Stick another 200 bucks in the budget for little things that pop up like new spark plugs, wires, etc... Add another 100 bucks for the exhaust work at your favorite local shop and you're done. Everything else can transfer over.

Most shops will charge 2K for a motor install around here. It's not hard at all.

You'll want a tune. You can if you want just use the stock tune and a Xcal-2 and add about 5-10% more WOT fuel. Get a cheap dyno run to make sure all is well and call it a day. You should expect 200-290hp and 320-370tq. Don't get caught up in peak numbers... it's where they land on the graph that's important. In any trim a 5.4 in a mustang makes for a pretty fast car and giant John Force style burnouts.

voidfinger · Dec 6, 2007

lol i hear ya, i just got so many things on the plate ya know. I would really love to have a 4.6 4v but if i can get the 5.4 cheaper that might be the way i go.

r3dn3ck · Dec 7, 2007

it'lll make mid to high 12's in the quarter on a 87 octane build. Very few other single mods can claim that.

voidfinger · Dec 7, 2007

so mid to high 12's with a stock 5.4 with the adapters and a tune for 87 in a automatic vert? don't know about all that.

96sn95gt · Dec 7, 2007

hey very nice could i use my bbk tuned length headers

jfor441 · Dec 7, 2007

96sn95gt said:
hey very nice could i use my bbk tuned length headers

From my understanding you could, but you might have to have them extended. Remember, the 5.4 block is taller than the 4.6. Read the thread that I linked. Has TONS of info there.

josh0092002 · Dec 7, 2007

which year model 5.4 motor will be best, or are they all the same?l

jfor441 · Dec 7, 2007

josh0092002 said:
which year model 5.4 motor will be best, or are they all the same?l

That I don't know, from what I have read, some came with steel cranks, some did not. You do want I believe 2000 and up for the PI heads and intake.

r3dn3ck · Dec 8, 2007

BBK tuned length shorty headers won't work. Steering shaft directly interferes. You can modify them but that'll be a world class PITA. FRPP and JBA shorties work out of the box. There will be longtubes produced pretty soon by a major manufacturer. I can't say any more on that.

yes, high 12's on an automatic trans equipped vert with 87 octane are entirely doable. To dip any lower than high 12's you'll probably have to work a bit at your launch. The power is definitely there but, you will need a tune by someone that understands tuning big tq motors on autos to get there and you'll have to practice keeping the tire spin down. A lower stall converter may help... or setting lockup for like oh I dunno... idle. Auto's are not my bag but it's been done already. Realize that a more powerful car than mine did mid 14's because he used 3.73's and couldn't get any traction at all.

With a 91/93 octane tune (same exact engine) call 12's a pretty well done deal if you can drive it.

All 5.4 blocks (iron) are basically the same. If you are doing a 2v, start with a 2v donor motor. It'll save you big time cash. As for what year.. don't matter a damn bit. 03 blocks are heavier so I'd go with a 98-01 block, any crank if NA and aftermarket forged if going blower, use H-series bearings from Federal Mogul and Speed Pro so you don't end up with a bad tune costing you a teardown. Pop for the ARP head and main stud kits, they're worth the 300 bucks x 1000.

For 2v PI heads you can use 4.6L pistons: flat tops is a hair over 11:1, -4.5cc dish is 10.5:1, -9cc-ish dish is 9.5:1. 18 and 21cc pistons for forced induction. Call your supplier and make sure. Forged are nice but Keith Black makes a nice HE cast piston for cheap. Check summit.

TMD (The Mustang Depot) has H-beam forged rods w/ ARP 2000 bolts for 320 bucks. YOU NEED TO AT LEAST CONSIDER H/I-BEAM AFTERMARKET RODS FOR A PERFORMANCE APPLICATION. Most serious failures of the 5.4 include busted rods and windowed blocks.

I learned those lessons the easy way, most others learn them the hard way. Choose your destiny wisely.