long term chassis development project

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wash

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Evidently Ford started using foam in 98 or 99 mustangs and I've heard several Japanese auto makers use foam.

Chassis deflection is measured by rigidly attaching the car to the ground at one end (usually the rear), supporting the other end beneath the center line on the long axis so the chassis could pivot if the other end was not constrained, then hang a known weight off of a lever of known length mounter 90° to the long axis and measure deflection with one dial indicator beneath each frame rail (on the free end).

With a little trigonometry you can even get a ft-lbs per degree number.

I realize that holes are bad but the placement is what matters. In a lightly loaded panel, holes can be fine because the yield point is never approached. In a highly loaded panel the stress concentration of a hole can cause catastrophic failure. If you take time to think about it and you know what to look for, its fairly easy to identify areas of high stress. If you have to drill in a bad place you can plate the area to locally increase the strength or drill oversized and weld in a thick wall tube to restore the strength.

People have been doing stuff like this for a long time, even before the manufacturers figured out that full frame rails aren't an efficient use of steel and started making unit body automobiles. There are lots of techniques used to design steel structures, the trick is knowing how and where to apply them. I've seen lots of high performance structures, fabricated several, talked design with engineers, taken a few courses and read quite a bit on the topic (hard bound books with more equations and text than illustrations and photos).

Considering your theory that chassis rigidity is only one detail contributing to the suspension performance, I'm sure you're right but if I take care of all the details, the big picture will take care of itself. I intend to take care of ALL of the details.
 

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So what part(s) are you working on right now? Any pics?
 

Burninrock24

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I understand on how to measure chassis deflection (we preload swaybars and roll cages all the time in my class), but do you have the proper equipment and everything needed to confidently measure it? I would imagine laser levels and such would only get you so far. I've never heard of the foam being used though so that's news to me, I wonder how it would hold up in daily use.
 
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So what part(s) are you working on right now? Any pics?

Research phase right now, I hope to cut metal and start welding around June.

As for measuring equipment, a trip to Harbor Freight with $50 in your pocket should get you all the tools you need to measure deflection with great accuracy. If you already know how to measure chassis deflection, why did you ask and why don't you think a couple dial indicators, a level, a tape measure and a bathroom scale can precisely measure it?
 

Burninrock24

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Research phase right now, I hope to cut metal and start welding around June.

As for measuring equipment, a trip to Harbor Freight with $50 in your pocket should get you all the tools you need to measure deflection with great accuracy. If you already know how to measure chassis deflection, why did you ask and why don't you think a couple dial indicators, a level, a tape measure and a bathroom scale can precisely measure it?

I ask because I know that properly measured chassis deflection isn't done with a bubble level, a dial indicator, and a bathroom scale. Chassis deflection is when done properly aka. resulting in a final number in lbs/ft or more relevant to SI -- newton/meters. You're going to need a constant and repeatable testing scenario first off. Your car will have to be supported on a lift or opposing jack stands and be absolutely level, which is pretty difficult to achieve with jackstands that come with 7-10 height settings. And even then, that will only account for the torsional forces. If you want to test for longitudinal and latitudinal flex youd need to devise a different system.

IIRC in the real world, chassis flex is measured by the bare chassis being attached at each bumper frame and then torque is applied and the angle of deflection is measured. And since it is in a free floating system they can measure all aspects of chassis flex.

I'm not saying it's not possible, but I don't think that it's repeatable, and therefore not consistent and constant to use as a benchmark test.
 

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I ask because I know that properly measured chassis deflection isn't done with a bubble level, a dial indicator, and a bathroom scale. Chassis deflection is when done properly aka. resulting in a final number in lbs/ft or more relevant to SI -- newton/meters. You're going to need a constant and repeatable testing scenario first off. Your car will have to be supported on a lift or opposing jack stands and be absolutely level, which is pretty difficult to achieve with jackstands that come with 7-10 height settings. And even then, that will only account for the torsional forces. If you want to test for longitudinal and latitudinal flex youd need to devise a different system.

IIRC in the real world, chassis flex is measured by the bare chassis being attached at each bumper frame and then torque is applied and the angle of deflection is measured. And since it is in a free floating system they can measure all aspects of chassis flex.

I'm not saying it's not possible, but I don't think that it's repeatable, and therefore not consistent and constant to use as a benchmark test.


If we're getting picky...

Torsional forces? I think you mean Moments.
Newton is capitalized. Newton-meters.
SI is not more relevant than American units.


You'd be amazed at what you can do with a bubble level and a bathroom scale. I for one say, I can't wait to see what you come up with OP!

/s/ real engineer.
 
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wash

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Thanks for backing me up.

A lot of people don't realize that people have been doing things like this since before lasers existed (for that laser level he thinks I need).

I don't think anything I'm going to do is very clever, its just stuff that hasn't been done or else documented outside of Ford (on an SN95).

What is clever is the way I've seen a guy corner weight a 900 lb race car using only two 250lb bathroom scales, some scrap metal and a couple wooden blocks. That's lots cheaper than buying a set of Longacre digital scales but his results agreed every time he checked it against the fancy scales.

I wish I could figure out how to make a shock dyno with a $50 Harbor Freight shopping spree but I'm not that clever.
 

Burninrock24

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If we're getting picky...

Torsional forces? I think you mean Moments.
Newton is capitalized. Newton-meters.
SI is not more relevant than American units.


You'd be amazed at what you can do with a bubble level and a bathroom scale. I for one say, I can't wait to see what you come up with OP!

/s/ real engineer.

Yes, they are the same thing, laymans terms. And whos getting picky now? Sorry I forgot to capitalize.

Thanks for backing me up.

A lot of people don't realize that people have been doing things like this since before lasers existed (for that laser level he thinks I need).

I don't think anything I'm going to do is very clever, its just stuff that hasn't been done or else documented outside of Ford (on an SN95).

What is clever is the way I've seen a guy corner weight a 900 lb race car using only two 250lb bathroom scales, some scrap metal and a couple wooden blocks. That's lots cheaper than buying a set of Longacre digital scales but his results agreed every time he checked it against the fancy scales.

I wish I could figure out how to make a shock dyno with a $50 Harbor Freight shopping spree but I'm not that clever.

Oh I'm well aware of that use of a scale, we corner weigh our race cars with bathroom scales. But you posted a thread looking for feedback. I'd love to see you really put down some serious numbers, but it just doesn't sound like you know the time commitment that you're getting yourself into. Just peer reviewing if you will.
 
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wash

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The design of the Kenny Brown extreme matrix brace could be a helpful bit of theory to look at. http://www.summitracing.com/parts/kbh-hkb-29550/overview/

I like some parts of that design but my solution will probably wind up quite different.

I like feedback but I hoped the form would be well thought out suggestions for possible reinforcements, stories of what people have found to stiffen the chassis and stories of stuff that didn't work as expected.

Pronouncements that I can't do better than Griggs aren't really helpful.

I don't think that is true but true or not a statement like that isn't going to make me give up.
 

Burninrock24

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I will admit, I've never heard of filling the hollow points in the chassis urethane foam, turns out Chrysler released a report on it and reported chassis rigidity improved by 30% on their SUV models. So we probably won't see as big of gains, but I'm sure it would still be noticeable.

http://papers.sae.org/1999-01-1785/ it's behind a paywall, but there for those interested.

I most definitely will be doing this on my race car. Chrysler reported that 2lb/ft^3 foam showed gains, but maximum gains were found with 16lb/ft^3 foam with heat triggered expansion.

Also, making sure that each area is absolutely dry, any moisture will turn into mold or rust quickly, and theres no going back once the foam is injected into the chassis.
 
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I will admit, I've never heard of filling the hollow points in the chassis urethane foam, turns out Chrysler released a report on it and reported chassis rigidity improved by 30% on their SUV models. So we probably won't see as big of gains, but I'm sure it would still be noticeable.

http://papers.sae.org/1999-01-1785/ it's behind a paywall, but there for those interested.

I most definitely will be doing this on my race car. Chrysler reported that 2lb/ft^3 foam showed gains, but maximum gains were found with 16lb/ft^3 foam with heat triggered expansion.

Also, making sure that each area is absolutely dry, any moisture will turn into mold or rust quickly, and theres no going back once the foam is injected into the chassis.

Now that is helpful.

30% is a lot too. I was thinking it might be 5% or so with 10 or 20 lbs of extra weight. Anything better than that would be great, anything less and it probably isn't worth the effort, especially with the moisture issue.

Luckily it isn't very humid around here and I can probably hit the chassis with a propane heater to try and vaporize any remaining moisture before I pour although extra heat might make the expanding foam kick off too soon so I'll have to test that too.
 
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wash

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One more thing before I buy and read that paper, do you know what model SUV it was?

I'm guessing it a unit-body SUV rather than body on frame.

Now that I think about it, it probably has to be unit-body because they wouldn't mount a body to a chassis rigidly enough to add much stiffness.

Now I'm trying to think about this and figure out if the long wheelbase of an SUV would weaken the chassis enough that the effect of the foam would be magnified or if the large roof structure would minimize the effect (I've heard Cadillac hearses are the safest cars on the road because the roof structure is so much stronger than a standard sedan or even station wagon but I'm not sure if that translates to torsional ridgidity).
 

Burninrock24

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I don't know about the make/model. I just gathered that info based on these posts:

http://forums.nicoclub.com/chassis-...t-1-qualitative-result-56k-no-go-t270721.html

http://www.iwsti.com/forums/1196552-post10.html

I don't think that the long roof would translate to torsional strength. I think where they excel is in perpendicular forces, like being rolled on top of itself. Same with the early 2000's eclipse doors, the roofs of SUVs have channels molded into them that add to strength. Similar to corrugated metal. and as somebody who has dealt with corrugated metal, it does not resist twisting any more than standard metal.

If there is any rigidity to be gained by having a large chassis, I'd imagine it would be because there are A, B, C, and D pillars to anchor the chassis together, versus AB or ABC layouts.

As to what I would expect, I honestly don't know. Some claim that it helped their Miatas extensively. And from personal experience of driving my buddies Miata from time to time, their chassis is much stiffer than ours. But does our flex come from the areas that we can correct with foam? I don't know entirely.
 

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