My Canyons

[Solar]

Well, I usually dont' post in this forum since I usually find the answer. While doing some research, I can only find a partial answer into the question I have.

So, I don't plan on having the mustang set up solely to go into a straight line. We all know the suspension sucks and so we need to add a lot of money into it. Not a problem. I currently have H&R SS springs and MM CC plates. Before I go ahead and add more to the suspension, I decided to go into a canyon road last night to test the car and find out what should be done. The springs helped alot on taking the corners even though the car has a lot of body roll. That of course can be fixed with new sway bars, full underbody brace, strut bars (front and rear) and yes, I plan on getting new struts and shocks as well. The real issue I had though was to the specific road. usually, the roads are completely flat even though it has many turns and hairpins. This road though was not flat at all. it had many ups and downs (small bumps) which caused the mustang to jump in the air. Now I am wondering on what I should do towards the suspension. It makes me wonder if it is the live axle that causes that. Can anything be done to the live axle to fix that problem? any other suggestions? Or do I need to go with the Cobra IRS? I rather not go with the IRS due to the bushings but...If I have to then I must. Otherwise, I will get a Subaru WRX/STI

 

[OnyxCobra]

The car was probably a little floaty because the stock struts can't control the car with the H&R SS drop.

 

[Solar]

I really don't understand exactly how the struts/shocks may help completely. Mind elaborating.

 

[Solar]

Bump. Any ideas what would help and how?

In case you guys are wondering, I have even read the stickies in multiple forums including this one.

 

[OnyxCobra]

the stock struts are not made to control the car at the lower ride height, that and they're old to start with and adding some new performance struts you're going to get a better ride and feel out of the car over bumps.

 

[ReplicaR]

First and foremost, I would like to say that I do not condone canyon carving. It is irresponsible, dangerous, and illegal.

Secondly, there is no such thing as good canyon setup. Speaking from experience, for the most part, in canyons you are overdriving the tires in every single turn. You don't really have space to setup the corner properly, hit the right apex every time, and there are way too many variables which take away from consistency. You may think that you are driving at the limit, but the reality is that you are probably not very close to it, because you are learning some bad habits which would hurt your speed at the track. I've instructed a few guys who go "canyon carving" and absolutely all of them were slow at the beginning overworking the car and tires. A couple of my friends who regularly "carved canyons" also brought out their car to the track. Their setup was so far off, it was not even funny. One of them had to disconnect the rear sway bar all together just to manage the car from oversteering, not to mention that they all had terrible body roll.

Third, if you really want to know what your next mod should be, go to the track. I'm going to guess that you are somewhere in SoCal, since that's where most "canyon carving" happens. We are blessed with 3 different race tracks (and a shit load of configurations) with in driving range, and not to take advantage of that is just foolish. At the track, you can safely get to the real limit of the car, not what you are feeling on the street. Only then you will be able to feel what is the next logical step in modifying suspension.

 

[Solar]

I agree with your canyon carving as in being dangerous. Although I love to cruise through the canyons, I never speed or drive reckelessly. I decided to go to the canyon to feel the most of the suspension since at the small tracks I have been to have not been giving me the feel I have needed as they have been small tracks. I wanted to feel the limit of the suspension in order to know what the next upgrade may be. I know the struts/shocks have been affecting greatly but due to the live axle our cars provide, I wasn't sure if the strut/shocks would make such a difference. This is the first time I have owned a live axle rear end. I know it would never handle as a STI but I would like to know that even with the live axle I may be competitive.

 

[ReplicaR]

My live axle car handles just fine, I can assure you of that. I think you sort of screwed yourself on the spring choice. While H&R Super Sport looks bitching, it drops the car too low for stock front end and rear end to work properly, and additionally the spring rates are too low. A good beginner kit in my opinion would have been either Koni or Bilstein shocks, paired with H&R Race or Super Race springs. They don't drop as much, so suspension still works fine. The springs are stiffer, so car does not transfer as much weight, and the shocks are top notch, so they will control the body motion better. If you are not planning on getting all crazy with suspension like I did, you can also add a set of sway bars from Eibach, and that should be a very solid kit, street or track. Don't ever say stuff like, "oh it will never handle like STi", or that live axle is a handicap. It's true, live axle does not really absorb sharp bumps, but then again, I don't know any track that has shitty surface like that. Also, STi has a motor that's so far forward, that any time you stuff it into a slow tight corner, all they do is understeer. We can move our motors back, and offset the weight distributions, but they can't. Make it light enough, put sticky tire on it, and anything will handle.

Which tracks have you been to btw?

 

[CompOrangeSN95]

I completely agree with ReplicaR, don't underestimate a good suspension set-up, I personally hate the way AWD cars handle.

 

[Solar]

Hate how AWD handle? Weird... Tracks? I've only been to some autocross parking lots and Adam's Motorsports Park.

Well, I went with the H&R SS springs since I use the car as a daily driver (1hr one-way). I was thinking about getting either the Bilstein HD or the Tokico D-Spec. Eventually I would like to upgrade sway bars, tower brace bars rear lower control arms and even getting a panhard bar with fullsize subframe connectors.

 

[vermilion]

there is a nice recipe brewing here. just not the rear strut tower brace. i highly recommend coil overs more then the average springs.

 

[Blind]

Hate how AWD handle? Weird... Tracks? I've only been to some autocross parking lots and Adam's Motorsports Park.

Well, I went with the H&R SS springs since I use the car as a daily driver (1hr one-way). I was thinking about getting either the Bilstein HD or the Tokico D-Spec. Eventually I would like to upgrade sway bars, tower brace bars rear lower control arms and even getting a panhard bar with fullsize subframe connectors.

awd cars for the most part handle really badly without a ton of mods, especially a stockish wrx or sti. A stockish evo 9 is pretty good out of the box, but they will still grease up the front tires badly really fast.

You don't need new swaybars or braces.

What works for me personally, as a good compromise daily driver type of car that hits the track with a live axle (my `89) is this -

MM FL subframes
MM strut brace
MM c/c plates
MM alum steering rack bushings
MM steering shaft
Power steering cooler upgrade to stop the PS fluid from boiling out
Griggs Koni double adjustable struts with 400lb coil over springs
Griggls Koni single adjustable shocks with MM torque-arm convential location springs
MM HD-adj lower control arms
MM panhard bar
PM3L (poor mans 3 link, basically removal of the passengers side upper control arm, and boxing and strengthening the remaining upper arm and torque box)


I do plan to get the MM HD torque arm at some point, but for now the setup is great, combined with cobra 5-lug brakes all around and 275/40R17 NT01 tires on 17x9 wheels all around it drives like a go kart.

And I agree, H&R SS springs are fairly crappy, I run the H&R race IRS springs on my sn95 and it sits a little high, but the spring rate is perfect for a daily driven track car when combined with take-off 03/04 cobra Bilstein struts/shocks all around.

 

[Solar]

As mentioned, the H&R Springs are good for daily driving. I did get them for that reason and I do plan to upgrade them. No new swaybars? I know they are not bad but sure gives much body roll. Is it just because of the spring/strut set up?

 

[MadStang]

As mentioned, the H&R Springs are good for daily driving. I did get them for that reason and I do plan to upgrade them. No new swaybars? I know they are not bad but sure gives much body roll. Is it just because of the spring/strut set up?

The stock swaybars are doing their job just fine. The body roll your feeling is a combination of the following:

Soft Spring Rates
Too soft dampening from the shocks and struts
Lack of chassis rigidity (no subframe connectors, strut tower brace, or roll cage).

All of this will contribute to body roll in a nutshell.

 

[ReplicaR]

As mentioned, the H&R Springs are good for daily driving. I did get them for that reason and I do plan to upgrade them. No new swaybars? I know they are not bad but sure gives much body roll. Is it just because of the spring/strut set up?

Dude, honestly, you'd be very surprised at how well H&R Race springs ride. I was extremely pleased with them when I first installed them. I daily drive my car too, probably a lot more than you (23k miles a year), and I've never had a problem with Race springs.

 

[Solar]

Dude, honestly, you'd be very surprised at how well H&R Race springs ride. I was extremely pleased with them when I first installed them. I daily drive my car too, probably a lot more than you (23k miles a year), and I've never had a problem with Race springs.

Well that's good to know. I drive an hour to work and back everyday on a non traffic day but that's good to know. After some further modifications, I will be upgrading springs.

 

[Solar]

The stock swaybars are doing their job just fine. The body roll your feeling is a combination of the following:

Soft Spring Rates
Too soft dampening from the shocks and struts
Lack of chassis rigidity (no subframe connectors, strut tower brace, or roll cage).

All of this will contribute to body roll in a nutshell.

Then it will be fixed ASAP...like, when I get money.

 

[MadStang]

Then it will be fixed ASAP...like, when I get money.

I know the feeling lol. took me forever to get my last mustang where it was.

in your case, my next upgrade would be bilstein shocks and struts. The longer you run your car lower on te stock dampers the sooner they're going to blow out and you'll be bouncing around like a cholo'd out 70's Cadillac.

 

[rz5.0]

And get an irs its got the cool exhaust

 

[Solar]

lol was thinking about the IRS just for the exhaust lol. So Brett, what do you suggest, Bilstein HD which I was originally looking into or the Tokico D-Spec?