Pro-M PIH harness

chris91 · Nov 22, 2012

Wonder why so many charts are off. After searching I found like 4-5 different charts stating different facts. But the math never lies. He's still going to be within the limits of 19lbers with a untouched GT40 setup, hell he'd probably be okay even with a mildly ported GT40 setup. And how are so many with over 300hp still running them? Even with cranking the FP I dont see that covering it.

RichV · Nov 22, 2012

I have countless dynosheets from my CMC1 days running 230HP limit, and CMC2 running a 260HP limit. I can tell you exact HP #s with the given setups. The E303 along with the 1.7 Cobra rollers will make HP. Here is some of my progression, *=Fox DA1 EEC, **=SN MAF

*227-231HP=E7, Cobra intake, Cobra t/b, 1.7s, stock headers, stock cam
*244-246HP=E7, Cobra intake, Cobra t/b, 1.7s, stock headers, E303
*257-259HP=GT40 heads, Fox Cobra intake, Cobra t/b, 1.7s, stock headers, E303
**252-254HP=GT40 heads, Fox Cobra intake, Cobra t/b, 1.7s, MAC headers, E303
**254-256HP=GT40p heads, SN Cobra intake, Cobra t/b, 1.6s, BBK headers, E303

All these were with 19lb injectors, u/d pulleys, electric fan (fox), stock comp ratio, relatively fresh shortblocks, timing between 10-14*, off road H, side exhaust or dumps, no portwork on anything. #s are RWHP.

Notice how the HP changed when I put my Fox motor that made 259 to the wheels in the 94 with the MAC headers, I expected the power to go up to 270ish, but it dropped by almost 10. All I did was take the motor from the fox and drop it in the 94, Fox intake and all. Left the MAC headers because I was not sure if the SN/Fox headers were the same (I know now they are, unless you run emission stuff). Tq #s were consistant between 290-305 IIRC without looking at the sheets, but when my HP went up, so did the Tq.

The injectors are not a necessity to change, specialy since these #s are corrected, so I'm probably 50HP less. I looked in the Ford EFI book and when you go full throttle and ECU switches to open loop, it does not say how hard the injectors run. If they run 100% awitching to 24s would not change anything would it? I mean running 100% both scenarios is still 100%. And this car spends 75% of the drive at WOT.

RichV · Nov 22, 2012

Oh, and dude wants $350 for the PIH setup, no ECU included. Good price? Or should I pass?

FrankenStang · Nov 22, 2012

NO, a larger injecter will run at less of a duty cycle...thats why you up them...and DONOT trust charts on what injectors flow to what HP..ask memebrs and what they are running..the charts on the net donot inlcude what PSI,style fuel system, duty cycle and dont say if they are good for the crank Hp or wheel HP, because there is a BIG change between the 2...also if a cobra comp calls for 24's, DO IT..

and at that price id look into it if theres nothing better around and depends on how fast you need/want it....better deals to be had..try Ebay maby..

FrankenStang · Nov 22, 2012

rz5.0 said:
At 85% duty cycle
19lb/hr = 258hp N/A*
24lb/hr = 326hp N/A*
30lb/hr = 408hp N/A*
32lb/hr = 435hp N/A
39lb/hr = 530hp N/A
47lb/hr = 639hp N/A
60lb/hr = 816hp N/A
80lb/hr = 1088hp N/A
The following is using the 19lb injector in the calcuation*max safe hp = [ (inj size) X (total # of inj) X (max duty cycle) ]/BSFC

those are the numbers i was only told also....i belive those are wheel HP numbers that a dyno would show...

RichV · Nov 22, 2012

You're not understanding what I'm saying. If the ECU is in open loop, it does not care what sensors are reading and is not adjusting injectors. It goes to a preset table, so if you have 24s or 19s they are being told to do what? 80%? 90%? 100%?

That's what I'm unsure of. My understanding is they go 100%.

Raffaelli · Nov 23, 2012

Rich, can you swap a fox engine harness in?

I did this with my blue car, wasn't terribly difficult. 3 wires get it running. Just all the car lights, horns, starter, tach, speedo kinda stuff doesnt work.

But the car was faster with a GT40 top end and a A9L over the T4M0 stuff.

RichV · Nov 23, 2012

Yea, I'm just trying to do it the easiest/cheapest way.

With Fox harnesses, obviously at least 1/2 days work, probably some wiring brain damage from engine to body harness. Fuel pump control, EEC power, and CCRM module are all uncharted ground for me. Cost of A9x plus harnesses $400ish. Then I need a BAP and a fan controller, maybe another $50.

Plug and play PIH, $350, plus Fox ECU $50-100. PIH already has the BAP and a built in fan controller. Install time is like 5 minutes and I'm running.

My other option is to pin the SN for the Fox ECU scheme, cost would be the least, but it needs to be dead nuts reliable. I was thinking about making my own PIH, it would not be very hard. Just requires some junkyardin' and a little custom solder slinging.

rz5.0 · Nov 23, 2012

RichV said:
You're not understanding what I'm saying. If the ECU is in open loop, it does not care what sensors are reading and is not adjusting injectors. It goes to a preset table, so if you have 24s or 19s they are being told to do what? 80%? 90%? 100%?

That's what I'm unsure of. My understanding is they go 100%.

No they don't go 100% that would mean they are open all the time..
It does not work like that.

EEC takes*MAF*voltage/load and uses a preset A/F value per the given RPM.
For injectors it is all values in the programming high slopes low slopes, pulse width so on and it adjusts depending on battery voltage
and temperature..
I missing some stuff as I only starting to get the hang of this Tuning stuff..

chris91 · Nov 23, 2012

If you do end up getting the PIH and cant find a manual for it I still have mine I could scan for you.

Addermk2 · Nov 23, 2012

OP, I would love to know who told you that the SN-95 ECM uses any kind of VE calculations.

Show me where you got this info, because AFAIK... its wrong

Especially considering the SN95 doesnt have a MAP/BAP sensor...

RichV · Nov 23, 2012

Addermk2 said:
OP, I would love to know who told you that the SN-95 ECM uses any kind of VE calculations.

Show me where you got this info, because AFAIK... its wrong

Especially considering the SN95 doesnt have a MAP/BAP sensor...

http://webpages.charter.net/darrell1/mustang_efi.html one of the places that I found. I read similar things on other sites as well, but had bookmarked this one because it was more complete.

Chris, if you could scan that I'd appreciate it. I'm going to go through with the deal. I will definitely plug in a Fox ECU vs SN on the dyno next spring when I dyno for my class legality stuff.

Addermk2 · Nov 23, 2012

you are relying on some really old and really outdated information.

And FWIW, the only way anyone will know that youve tuned your car, is if you physically have to pull your ECM out of the car and show it to someone. Although, someone wise like myself could hide the chip inside the case.

A Cobra ECM would be a much wiser choice over the T4M0 though.

FrankenStang · Nov 23, 2012

^ thats waht i was thinking...if im correct there no way to "plugh something up" to check the ecu on a 5.0....why not internally piggyback the ecu..?

chris91 · Nov 24, 2012

Well I just checked and its no longer there. All the other receipts were there from the car but that wasnt. Ill check in a couple other spots but dont keep your hope up. lol Sorry!!

I did search around and did you know the second gen kit was basically just instructions and the fan controller with bap sensor? All you had to do was repin I think it said 11 wires and splice 9. Might be worth trying to find that info instead of spending $350 for the kit without a ecu.

RichV · Nov 24, 2012

Addermk2 said:
you are relying on some really old and really outdated information.

And FWIW, the only way anyone will know that youve tuned your car, is if you physically have to pull your ECM out of the car and show it to someone. Although, someone wise like myself could hide the chip inside the case.

A Cobra ECM would be a much wiser choice over the T4M0 though.

So is it not true? Do you have different info?

FrankenStang said:
^ thats waht i was thinking...if im correct there no way to "plugh something up" to check the ecu on a 5.0....why not internally piggyback the ecu..?

The early OBD1 SNs need a plug in chip just like the Foxes, I think the OBD2 systems can just load tunes with a handheld tuner? I may be wrong, but when I looked into a tuner for our Excursion, it's as easy as plug tuner into OBD2 port and send tune. You're done. My point isn't to try and cheat, I want to be legal. Our cars do not have interiors, the ECU is in the stock location in most cars, some it is not. But can be checked at any race, specialy if someone suspects there are 'shenanigans', as we call them. Some guys have a "it ain't cheatin' till you get caught attitude", but not me. Once someone displays that behaviour I want to tear their car appart every race to see what shenanigans they've brewed up this time. Yes, I don't trust guys like that.

The one worry I have on the Cobra ECU is one of our Mustang guys is using one. He makes the power on the dyno, but on track something is not right. We put Traqmate data aquisition into random cars and it calculates HP based on weight and acceleration on track, his car is not on par with the LT/LS powered Camaros, which it should be. So if there is a set of turns where you are on and off the throttle or modulating the throttle, is this causing a split second problem which multiplies causing you to be a half second slower. We will be going through the data in a upcoming meeting and getting deeper into it, I don't quite understand it fully.

Addermk2 · Nov 24, 2012

the problem that your buddy is having, is likely NOT from his ECM, but rather in something he has setup on the car itself. Whether it be a bad sensor, an improper installation, or even a mis-calibration of the basic setup.