Procharger for a 1994 GT

B.mad · Mar 1, 2015

dont get my wrong with proper gearing and minor bolt on's, its more than enough to have some serious fun and get hurt. But im having trouble making some of you realize that this motor build will not handle after 5 track events, its going to happen after several years and countless track events. Which is why i am building my suspension, chassis, brakes, and driveline first before my motor. I just got some subframes, next is going to fix my problems and maybe get a phb/ta and coilovers. and then go to the big tracks and see how it acts. there are little go cart tracks i can go to weekly, but they arent fast tracks, good practice though.

so sorry if im coming off like an asshole, and appreciate you guys helping me out, but please really stick to the motor. because tellng me to do track events is not answering questions..especially when i know i need to do track events...thank you.

kb1982 · Mar 2, 2015

B.mad said:
My car currently has 0 overheating issues, no matter the time of day, or day of the year. I can push it hard and it wont over heat. temp says at the middle or below. And thats with stock replacement parts.

Do you have photos of how you have the intercool system set up on this car?

Dont really have any pics that show how the intercooler is mounted, nor the piping. As for the routing, the piping goes from the sc which is a straight discharge, clocked to about the 7 o clock position. It points down and slightly towards the passenger fender. The pipings run from there to the intercooler inlet on the passenger side. The outlet is on the driver side. Comes out on the driverside, and crosses back over to the passenger side, and then goes up and into the throttle body.

DavidBoren · Mar 2, 2015

To answer your question, and only your question, yes you can easily use a centrifugal supercharger without overheating your engine on the road course.

You will need a very adequate cooling system, including a good radiator with a good fan and shroud. You will want some sort of functioning heat extraction vents in your hood. You will want a good oil cooler. You will want a good power steering cooler (if you are using power steering, disregard if you have manual steering). Pretty much run a dedicated cooler for every fluid you can and vent as much hot air out of the engine bay as possible.

That's just a good cooling system, and is a wise investment regardless of whether or not you have boost.

Once you have a good cooling system, throw on a centrifugal supercharger with an aftercooler. Be it a front mount air to air intercooler, or a air to water intercooler, it doesn't matter. As long as it's intercooled, you should be fine.

Each of the methods of cooling boost have perks and drawbacks. On a road race course, you will be moving enough that an air to air intercooler would be perfect, and you wouldn't experience heat soak. But front mount intercoolers pose a problem with space and plumbing.

You can use an air to water intercooler. They make these in various sizes and shapes, usually can package them just about anywhere. You will need a reservoir and pump and at least one heat exchanger. Personally, in this case, I would use an a2w intercooler with a small heat exchanger before the intercooler, and a large heat exchanger after the intercooler, but that's just me.

Water/meth/nos injection has is benefits, but require you to refill a tank(s). If you don't have a problem keeping your tanks full, then this is a great system that takes up the least amount of space in the engine bay.

g36 monkey · Mar 2, 2015

Isn't the kenne bell still available for the pushrod?

castine917 · Mar 2, 2015

DavidBoren said:
Be it a front mount air to air intercooler, or a air to water intercooler, it doesn't matter. As long as it's intercooled, you should be fine.

Each of the methods of cooling boost have perks and drawbacks. On a road race course, you will be moving enough that an air to air intercooler would be perfect, and you wouldn't experience heat soak. But front mount intercoolers pose a problem with space and plumbing.

You can use an air to water intercooler. They make these in various sizes and shapes, usually can package them just about anywhere. You will need a reservoir and pump and at least one heat exchanger. Personally, in this case, I would use an a2w intercooler with a small heat exchanger before the intercooler, and a large heat exchanger after the intercooler, but that's just me.

Hypothetically speaking that neither air to air or air to water took any space. Which would cool better on a longer track session? My assumption would be air to water for short sessions and air to air for longer sessions.

castine917 · Mar 2, 2015

g36 monkey said:
Isn't the kenne bell still available for the pushrod?

I'm not seeing it on Kenne Bell's website.

http://www.kennebell.net/KBWebsite/SC_pg/layouts/SC.htm

Or their price guide.
http://www.kennebell.net/KBWebsite/Pricelist_pg/links/PriceList.pdf

If you do a search for Kenne Bell 1994 mustang though.
http://www.kennebell.net/KBWebsite/SC_pg/Mustang 5.0/layouts/blowzillaflowzilla.htm

DavidBoren · Mar 2, 2015

Water is a better median for transferring heat than air, but you have an endless supply of air to transfer heat to. Whereas in an a2w set-up, you are using a limited supply of water, and it can only absorb a limited supply of heat. There are systems that use the air conditioner to actively super-chill the intercooler reservoir, but I don't know if you want anything that conplex, or if you are retaining your air conditioner.

Short answer, go with a good air to air intercooler and be done with it.

duh09 · Mar 2, 2015

g36 monkey said:
Isn't the kenne bell still available for the pushrod?

The 5.0L Kenne Bells leave a lot on the table. Better packaging maybe than a centri setup but a lot harder to keep the IATs down when trying to make more power from what I've read. There don't seem to be any very efficient roots style blowers for the pushrod cars that I know of.

B.mad · Mar 2, 2015

DavidBoren said:
To answer your question, and only your question, yes you can easily use a centrifugal supercharger without overheating your engine on the road course.

You will need a very adequate cooling system, including a good radiator with a good fan and shroud. You will want some sort of functioning heat extraction vents in your hood. You will want a good oil cooler. You will want a good power steering cooler (if you are using power steering, disregard if you have manual steering). Pretty much run a dedicated cooler for every fluid you can and vent as much hot air out of the engine bay as possible.

That's just a good cooling system, and is a wise investment regardless of whether or not you have boost.

Once you have a good cooling system, throw on a centrifugal supercharger with an aftercooler. Be it a front mount air to air intercooler, or a air to water intercooler, it doesn't matter. As long as it's intercooled, you should be fine.

Each of the methods of cooling boost have perks and drawbacks. On a road race course, you will be moving enough that an air to air intercooler would be perfect, and you wouldn't experience heat soak. But front mount intercoolers pose a problem with space and plumbing.

You can use an air to water intercooler. They make these in various sizes and shapes, usually can package them just about anywhere. You will need a reservoir and pump and at least one heat exchanger. Personally, in this case, I would use an a2w intercooler with a small heat exchanger before the intercooler, and a large heat exchanger after the intercooler, but that's just me.

Water/meth/nos injection has is benefits, but require you to refill a tank(s). If you don't have a problem keeping your tanks full, then this is a great system that takes up the least amount of space in the engine bay.

Didnt even know there was a power steering cooler LOL. Ok so as far as cooling, this was my plan:

Mishmoto (because thats the only one i really found) oil cooler with thermostat, and tranny cooler,
Aftermarket radiator (after i do my research ill know the brand)
spal dual electric fans CFM is unknown.
and intercooler kit assuming i do get a s/c. and possibly meth injection
i could possibly run a diff cooler but i woldnt see any benefit for a cooler engine bay. maybe brake ducts will aid in some kind of temp reduction
and now the power steering cooler.

can you please explain heat soak? i see this term tossed around, but the context wont give the definition.

B.mad · Mar 2, 2015

DavidBoren said:
Water is a better median for transferring heat than air, but you have an endless supply of air to transfer heat to. Whereas in an a2w set-up, you are using a limited supply of water, and it can only absorb a limited supply of heat. There are systems that use the air conditioner to actively super-chill the intercooler reservoir, but I don't know if you want anything that conplex, or if you are retaining your air conditioner.

Short answer, go with a good air to air intercooler and be done with it.

Well i do plan on keeping my AC.,..its going to be a DD so i want that comfort. soooo care to explain this complex system?

B.mad · Mar 2, 2015

castine917 said:
I'm not seeing it on Kenne Bell's website.

http://www.kennebell.net/KBWebsite/SC_pg/layouts/SC.htm

Or their price guide.
http://www.kennebell.net/KBWebsite/Pricelist_pg/links/PriceList.pdf

If you do a search for Kenne Bell 1994 mustang though.
http://www.kennebell.net/KBWebsite/SC_pg/Mustang 5.0/layouts/blowzillaflowzilla.htm

even if i can get a hold of this kit..i think thatl be to much power for a road course car

DavidBoren · Mar 2, 2015

Here is a company that makes an active intercooler. They do not offer one specifically for the Mustang, but you can get a pretty good idea of what I am talking about.
http://www.activeinterchiller.com/

DavidBoren · Mar 2, 2015

This company makes an air to air intercooler with internal coolant loops that you can run a cooling agent through, which could be combined with a 12v stand-alone a/c system... baller.

Link:
http://www.speedmaxperformance.com/Intercoolers.php

B.mad · Mar 3, 2015

DavidBoren said:
This company makes an air to air intercooler with internal coolant loops that you can run a cooling agent through, which could be combined with a 12v stand-alone a/c system... baller.

Link:
http://www.speedmaxperformance.com/Intercoolers.php

ohh man this is awesome!! and 12v you mean electricity right???

also someone was mentioning inconsistant boost levels with the centrif's. I want to know more of this. do you know anything about it?

DavidBoren · Mar 3, 2015

Yes, I was referring to a 12 volt electrical a/c compressor. They are kind of hard to find, but it would only be for the intercooler reservoir anyways, so you probably don't need some large 6 ton capacity compressor just for a stand-alone active intercooler set-up.

And to answer your question about compressor surge... you can eliminate it by using the vortech bypass valve immediately after the blower, before the intercooler. Or, if you want to use a blow off valve, use one that vents to atmosphere, and place it immediately after the blower/before the intercooler.

B.mad · Mar 3, 2015

DavidBoren said:
Yes, I was referring to a 12 volt electrical a/c compressor. They are kind of hard to find, but it would only be for the intercooler reservoir anyways, so you probably don't need some large 6 ton capacity compressor just for a stand-alone active intercooler set-up.

And to answer your question about compressor surge... you can eliminate it by using the vortech bypass valve immediately after the blower, before the intercooler. Or, if you want to use a blow off valve, use one that vents to atmosphere, and place it immediately after the blower/before the intercooler.

wait a moment...so they actually do make electric a/c compressors?? dam i wasnt crazy lol i knew i seen it somewhere.

Kind of a noob question but the bypass valve and bov's dont know what supercharger they are on right? meaning they can be used for both prochargers and vortechs?

And i am directionally challenged. what is before or after the blower? from the reference point of looking into the hood.

DavidBoren · Mar 3, 2015

Yes, they do make 12v a/c compressors for hotrods and such.

I am not exactly sure which direction the blower "faces" in relation to the car, so I will say that the air filter is before the supercharger, the intercooler is after. So you want the bypass/blow off valve between the blower and the intercooler. And you are correct, the bypass/blow off valve does not care if it is after a procharger or a vortech or a turbo, it will work with any brand of blower, just the bypass valve that vortech makes is said to be really good, so I mentioned it by name.

B.mad · Mar 3, 2015

awesomeness..looks like there is hope for a blower setup in a road racer/DD...this isnt going to be a dedicated road racer, itll see more street use and canyon rides than road racing. and a good share of go cart tracks. maybe 2-3 races quarterly. thanks for the options man!.

obvious question but still want to ask. What do you think is better for a road racer? blower setup or N/A? and why?

DavidBoren · Mar 3, 2015

Define "better". And when you say blower, are we still specifically talking about centrifugal superchargers?

For power delivery, you can't beat a naturally aspirated engine, or an engine with a positive displacement blower. The torque curve on a naturally aspirated motor or roots-type blower equipped engine is broad and flat and the torque is there immediately and the engine/power is predictable.

With centrifugal superchargers and turbos, the torque curve starts later in the rpm range... generally speaking. And said torque curve is usually sharper, with a peak or point. This makes for power that isn't there down low, but hits like a freight train up top.

You can learn to use either to great effectiveness, it's just a matter of what you want or enjoy. I, personally, like the down low immediate power of a well built n/a motor. With positive displacement superchargers being a close 2nd. Turbos and centrifugal blowers are last on my list, especially for road racing. Texas mile car, yes, big single turbo or a big centri blower.

I am a huge fan of consistency and predictability. When I press on the gas pedal, I want an immediate, linear, predictable response from the car. With naturally aspirated engines, and positive displacement superchargers, this is generally the sensation you can expect.

With a turbo or centrifugal supercharger, you press in the gas and it's almost like nothing is happening, then BAM!, here's your power, all at once, you better be holding on. And that's cool. And you can learn how to use that and play to it, but I prefer the more linear power progression associated with n/a or roots motors.