Suspension setup question (kinda long)

97stanger

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Hey guys, So this winter I am trying to finish up my suspension setup. Keep in mind this car is only a street car, about 8 months of the year a daily driver. With that in mind, here are suspension parts already on my car:

Eibach Pro Kit
KYB AGX 8 way adjustable gas shocks/struts
MM Full Length Subframes welded in

I have these parts sitting in my room waiting to be installed:

MM Strut Tower Brace
MM caster/camber plates
Steeda aluminum non adjustable lower control arms


Now my question is, do you guys think I should go with upper control arms or what? I have been told by some to do the uppers, and from some to do a torque arm. If i did go with uppers i would go with steeda adjustables. Either way I will also be getting my upper/lower torque boxes welded. Also, any kind of suspension you think im missing? Any input would be appreciated!

Mike
 

SRT Handz

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Upper Control Arms = BAD.

They cause a binding issue when under full load. Dalimar has an extensive explanation on the subject that i know has savd many people from buying uppers, including me.

this is from Maximum Motorsports Site...

We performed extensive testing of rear upper control arm bushing materials during the development of our Panhard Bar. When retaining the original four-link suspension, the best compromise between resistance to suspension bind, best control of axle position, best ride quality, and least potential damage to the chassis, is to retain rubber bushings in the rear upper control arms. This is especially important when adding a Panhard Bar. The compliance of a rubber-bushed upper control arm is required when a Panhard bar is added to the Mustang four-link suspension.
 

freefallin98

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How much would a guy charge tp weld my upper and lower torque boxes? What are the pros of having them welded and is it an essential element for making a good launch? Would a guy know where to weld them is he isnt familiar of there use, etc?

Thanks,
Free
 

SRT Handz

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blown97stanger said:
So if I was to not do uppers, what would my other options be?

Since its a daily driven car i would say stick with stock uppers and get a MM Panhard Bar. If you run a torque arm you have to run a panhard bar anyways, so get the PHB.

if you are dragging car and not taking very many turn but want to gain straight line traction, get the uppers because you can adjust pinion angle.

If you want to improve handling then i was stick with stock uppers and buy a set of sway bars. You will notice a HUGE night and day difference with a set of Huge swaybars. It will make your car handling like a go-kart and will reduce body-roll by a huge amount. Then get a PHB if you have the money money more and that would be set.
 
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97stanger

97stanger

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UPDATE:

I just ordered an upper/lower torque box kit and Steeda Adjustable upper control arms!! woop woop...so heres what i will have in my room waiting to be installed:

MM strut tower brace
MM caster/camber plates
Steeda aluminum non adjustable lower control arms
Steeda adjustable upper control arms
torque box reinforce kit

I think this should really help me plant some power to the ground...what ya think?
 

Dalamar

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I've gone through my whole suspension twice, so let me tell you a bit of what I learned.
suspension is not as simple as most ppl think. and what good is extra power if you can't put it down effectively?

This adjustable uppers and torque box information is commonly spread as an "upgrade" for a street car. it is NOT.
it is for drag racing cars that go in a straight line, and don't need the 4- link rear suspension to articulate under torque.
cheap parts manufacturers push to sell their junk... the fact that some illinformed persone told you to get a torque box reinforcement shows the flaw of the control arms in question.
there should be NO force transfered into the sheetmetal of the car or the "torque box" as they say... the fact that it can bend up that area of the cars unibody, and it needs to be reinforced - that is backwords thinking!

Panhard rod & better Lower control arms, and stick with stock uppers is the best way to go, if you'r staying a 4-link rear. especially on a street car where you will be hitting the throttle coming out of corners while the suspension is articulating. the info SRT posted is correct. the informaion on MM's web site is thurough and tested, you should check it out.

I'd recommend the panhard bro. the panhard keeps the axle centered which helps a lot in with corner exit and gets rid of axle defflection, which makes you slide sideways when you burn out - this is bad... :santa_lipsrsealed:

anyway, take it for what it's worth. the mustang suspension is an old design and has it's flaws. the 4-link upper articulation bind being the worst part, along with soft bushings and rain gutter shaped LCA's.... I"ve gone the rounds on suspension parts. cheaper parts will always give you less performance. if you really want your car to handle well, I'd suggest you take a look at it.

BTW, I had the panhard on my car with the stock uppers, and it was amazing difference over stock.
I've since added the torque arm, for superior rear suspension traction... and yes, it's not cheap.

It's kinda like this:
Stock suspension = VHS
Pan Hard Rod and LCA's from MM = DVD
Pan Hard with Torque arm and LCA's = High Def Blue Ray :santa_smiley:
 
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97stanger

97stanger

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thanks for the info but im pretty happy with what i chose. I talked to many people running adjustable uppers (setting the pinion angle back to stock) and non adjustable lowers and they are very pleased with how it plants the wheels. I'll let you know how it turns out!
 

SRT Handz

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blown97stanger said:
thanks for the info but im pretty happy with what i chose. I talked to many people running adjustable uppers (setting the pinion angle back to stock) and non adjustable lowers and they are very pleased with how it plants the wheels. I'll let you know how it turns out!

Good luck turning....Deflection will occur.

We already know what the outcome will be.....We are the SN95 Parts Police, We pretty Much Know Everything
 
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97stanger

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It will be alright guys, I talked to about 4 guys pushing serious hp over at MPH and three of them were even running adjustables (i mean mid 10sec cars)...they said ill be fine. I dont need any crazy steup on a car that will only see 400rwhp. relax.
 

Dalamar

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I wonder why I explain this stuff. almost every time ppl think it's too much trouble.
I've tried to explain it in simple terms.

just because 4 other ppl run them doesn't mean theyre just fine. they really dont know the difference.
I'm not trying to push you, just explain what works and why.

you'd really be better off with a panhard instead of adjustable upper control arms. ON A STREET CAR, being the key factor here.
I explained exactly why. I've also encouraged you to read up on the source, not just believe what we (or others) are saying.
but, it's your car.... :santa_smiley:

anyway, no pressure, I'm just trying to spread the truth.

Whichever way you go, I wanna see pics!! :santa_smiley:




SRT - try not to sound so cocky man, it undermines what your saying :D
 
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97stanger

97stanger

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I just dont see the point in spending $700+ on two rear suspension parts. I did my research, I was told that the torque arm and panhard bar are more for cornering and such. I want something that will really help my straight line performance.
 

SRT Handz

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blown97stanger said:
I just dont see the point in spending $700+ on two rear suspension parts. I did my research, I was told that the torque arm and panhard bar are more for cornering and such. I want something that will really help my straight line performance.

well, you said street car, so the set dalimar explained is the best you can do.

a Buddy of mine did adjustable upper on his 03 cobra (Solid Swapped), and i explained that deflection and binding would occur. Just to help him out we went to radio shack and purchesed one of those small little cameras that are connected to a little screen for finding things.

i mounted the camera under car facing one of the UCAs....then i drove his car while he sat in the passenger seat and watched the screen. He saw the deflection and binding and took his Adjustable UCAs off, sold then, and Bought a panhard with some stock uppers
 

Dalamar

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I hear you if it's a money reason.
the panhard rod is 350.

you'd be better off without doing uppers at all, with or without the panhard.
and definately upgrade the lower control arms - like you have on your list.

If I may offer some more "research" from the source:
Here's what Maximum motorsports has to say about the Mustang control arms.
the GREEN says it best.

I like how they explain the different performance aspects, and what they do!!
(if your interested) :santa_smiley:

Rear Lower Control Arms
Improve traction and handling with Maximum Motorsports Rear Lower Control Arms. Replacing the stock rear lower control arms, and their soft rubber bushings, with MM Rear Lower Control Arms will keep your tires firmly planted on the road.

What sets MM Rear Lower Control Arms apart from all the rest?
It’s the engineering expertise we put into our unique bushing designs. Instead of simply making control arms the same way as everyone else, we first analyzed the Mustang’s rear suspension geometry, and then designed control arm bushings to provide what is needed to improve traction and handling. The superior design of MM rear lower control arms increases traction, without the poor handling characteristics commonly caused by most other aftermarket control arms.

The rear control arms connect the rear axle housing to the chassis. All of the forces that accelerate the car, as well as the braking loads, pass through the rear control arms. In stock form, the deflection of the rubber bushings prevents the rear axle from maintaining its correct position under the chassis, leading to instability from rear steer. During acceleration, the rear tires push the axle forward, which in turn moves the car forward by pushing on the rear lower control arms. Replacing the rear lower control arms with MM control arms will improve traction and handling primarily because of the elimination of the overly compliant stock rubber bushings. With MM rear lower control arms, the properly designed bushing mounted in a stout tubular arm keeps the axle correctly positioned under the chassis. Traction and handling are both improved because the axle does not move around in an unpredictable manner.

Most aftermarket rear control arms use hard 2-piece urethane bushings, Delrin bushings, or steel bushings. Those types of bushings do not allow the angularity needed for the Mustang’s suspension to articulate freely. The resulting suspension bind causes the rear tires to break loose very easily. Suspension bind not only causes poor handling and poor traction, but it also causes damage to the torque-boxes. As the attachment points on the chassis for the rear control arms, the torque-boxes can suffer greatly from the abuse of poorly designed control arm bushings. After all, the torque boxes are only made of folded sheet metal.

Stop wheel hop
Ford’s solution for reducing wheel hop was the addition of the quad shocks (the two horizontal shocks mounted behind the rear axle). They reduce wheel hop by dampening axle wind-up. Axle windup is caused by two independent deflections: the control arms, and the rubber bushings. Deflection of the control arms is eliminated because the MM arms are over three times stiffer than the stock control arm. Deflection of the soft stock rubber bushings is eliminated by our unique bushing designs. These designs are the result of extensive motion analysis of what actually occurs when the rear suspension moves over bumps, and during body roll. Installing MM’s rear lower control arms eliminates the primary cause of wheel hop, which is the deflection of the stock lower control arms and their bushings. While there are other factors besides the compliance of the control arm bushings that cause wheel hop, the MM arms usually reduce axle wind-up enough to allow removal of the factory quad shocks.

Good Research is the Basis of Good Engineering
The concept of wheel rate is similar to that of spring rate. But, to put it into simple terms, the wheel rate is measured at the wheel, not at the spring. Poorly designed suspension components can prevent the control arms from articulating properly during bump and body roll, and therefore cause suspension bind. This suspension bind will cause the wheel rate to increase unpredictably, adversely affecting handling.

To analyze the geometry involved, Maximum Motorsports used a full-scale mock up of the rear suspension. When we tested other aftermarket control arms, we found that most use bushing designs that actually cause an increase in suspension bind, compared to a stock control arm! Control arms that had hard urethane bushings at each end increased the wheel rate by 400%! For example, as little as a 10% increase in rear wheel rate will have a noticeable effect on the handling balance of a car, because the rear cornering grip will be noticeably reduced.

So, why does the wheel rate increase? In the Mustang’s rear suspension design, whether it is still the stock 4-link suspension design, or has been modified to a Torque-arm or three-link design, the control arms do not simply pivot. The arms also move sideways, with an angular motion (relative to the pivot axis). If that angular motion is restricted because of a poor bushing design, the suspension will bind. While some aftermarket control arms may seem to improve performance because of reduced bushing compliance, it is only improved to a level slightly higher than the stock control arms. Once the car is pushed past that level, the increased wheel rate from the suspension bind will cause unpredictable handling– not to mention damage to the torque boxes.

To avoid that nasty situation, the two different bushing configurations of both the MM Heavy-Duty and Extreme-Duty Rear Lower Control Arms allow the necessary freedom of suspension articulation, while continuing to positively locate the axle in the fore-and-aft direction.

MM offers two different types of rear lower control arms: Heavy-Duty and Extreme-Duty. The difference between the two is the bushing configuration. The Heavy-Duty arms are suitable for cars with moderate horsepower levels that are not drag raced. We recommend the Extreme-Duty control arms for any car that is drag raced, and any car with the higher horsepower levels that come with superchargers, larger displacement engines, etc.

We performed extensive testing of rear upper control arm bushing materials during the development of our Panhard Bar. When retaining the original four-link suspension, the best compromise between resistance to suspension bind, best control of axle position, best ride quality, and least potential damage to the chassis, is to retain rubber bushings in the rear upper control arms. This is especially important when adding a Panhard Bar. The compliance of a rubber-bushed upper control arm is required when a Panhard bar is added to the Mustang four-link suspension.

this info is all on their web site.
 

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