modo
Well-Known Member
Re: In Response to Javi's Post....
mmm bacon cheeseburger
Paul said:
mmm bacon cheeseburger
The Great Boost Discussion Thread - GOOD INFO INSIDE!!!
- Thread starter Hellion94
- Start date
CC'S95GT
Post Whore
Re: In Response to Javi's Post....
I agree.
There is alot of good experienced info here.
I am also glad it hasn't become a bash fest.
I would like to here more on turbo's pro's and con's as well.
I agree.
There is alot of good experienced info here.
I am also glad it hasn't become a bash fest.
I would like to here more on turbo's pro's and con's as well.
Re: In Response to Javi's Post....
It all depends what you are trying to do and what results you want to see... The turbo kit that I had on the car was the very first On3Performance turbo kit that Chad made for the 5.0L. There was NOTHING that was cut from the car... The turbo was the Ebay special China job business 70mm, made full boost at 3200 RPM and all the way to 5600 RPM and the car made more power than I could have ever made with a blower on a BONE STOCK intake to oil pan 302... It made 527 RWHP and 654 RWTQ @ 15.1psi and a daily driven 389 RWHP and 424 RWTQ @ 6.8 PSI... At 14 psi 3200 RPM car made 427 RWHP and I had over 500 RWHP from 4300 RPM all the way to 5600 RPM where the power started dropping... Power under the curve was unmatched compared to any blower that the car could have had on a stock cam, stock 89 302 shortblock 70K miles, stock unported E7's, stock unported intake, 65mm throttle body, 42lb injectors, 255 intank and a 255 pusher pump. The only thing that the shortblock had was ARP headstuds and Felpro headgaskets... We could have made more power but we maxed out the injectors... The only problem I was having was that the car kept running hot (underhood temps are huge with a turbo), but dual fans in the front and the back of the radiator (one pushing one pulling) and a 160* thermostat fixed the problem... I never had a problem with the turbo and I liked the way it made power... I have had a supercharged car that made 100+ RWHP more than my turbo car and it didnt pull as hard... But it took a lot more to instal a turbo than a Vortech and at the end IT WILL COST MORE to build a turbo car rather than a supercharged car... I LOVED my Vortech and if I had to do it again I would without a shadow of a doubt go Vortech because if you want to work on the car it is EASY... Less parts to take off and less parts to put back on, and trust me you will break stuff and stuff will need to be replaced, upgraded and so on, and it is a lot easier to take 1 or 2 tubes off rather than 5 or 6, and than make sure you put them back on and blah blah blah... For the simlicity and the great power they make and how easy is to work around them, Vortech is the way to go...
It all depends what you are trying to do and what results you want to see... The turbo kit that I had on the car was the very first On3Performance turbo kit that Chad made for the 5.0L. There was NOTHING that was cut from the car... The turbo was the Ebay special China job business 70mm, made full boost at 3200 RPM and all the way to 5600 RPM and the car made more power than I could have ever made with a blower on a BONE STOCK intake to oil pan 302... It made 527 RWHP and 654 RWTQ @ 15.1psi and a daily driven 389 RWHP and 424 RWTQ @ 6.8 PSI... At 14 psi 3200 RPM car made 427 RWHP and I had over 500 RWHP from 4300 RPM all the way to 5600 RPM where the power started dropping... Power under the curve was unmatched compared to any blower that the car could have had on a stock cam, stock 89 302 shortblock 70K miles, stock unported E7's, stock unported intake, 65mm throttle body, 42lb injectors, 255 intank and a 255 pusher pump. The only thing that the shortblock had was ARP headstuds and Felpro headgaskets... We could have made more power but we maxed out the injectors... The only problem I was having was that the car kept running hot (underhood temps are huge with a turbo), but dual fans in the front and the back of the radiator (one pushing one pulling) and a 160* thermostat fixed the problem... I never had a problem with the turbo and I liked the way it made power... I have had a supercharged car that made 100+ RWHP more than my turbo car and it didnt pull as hard... But it took a lot more to instal a turbo than a Vortech and at the end IT WILL COST MORE to build a turbo car rather than a supercharged car... I LOVED my Vortech and if I had to do it again I would without a shadow of a doubt go Vortech because if you want to work on the car it is EASY... Less parts to take off and less parts to put back on, and trust me you will break stuff and stuff will need to be replaced, upgraded and so on, and it is a lot easier to take 1 or 2 tubes off rather than 5 or 6, and than make sure you put them back on and blah blah blah... For the simlicity and the great power they make and how easy is to work around them, Vortech is the way to go...
Re: In Response to Javi's Post....
how do you match up a compressor map with an engine?
i mean, WTF is THIS?
<img src="http://www.turbofast.com.au/img/to4e-54.JPG">
how do you match up a compressor map with an engine?
i mean, WTF is THIS?
<img src="http://www.turbofast.com.au/img/to4e-54.JPG">
Re: In Response to Javi's Post....
great discussion in this thread.
as stated there are multiple variables that apply.
For my build I looked and engine and head upgrades, as well as which blower would give me the most usable power curve for what I want to do with this car.
great discussion in this thread.
as stated there are multiple variables that apply.
For my build I looked and engine and head upgrades, as well as which blower would give me the most usable power curve for what I want to do with this car.
Re: In Response to Javi's Post....
I agree with you that there are some blanket statements that are without backing or proof. Fact of the matter is this, no supercharger, or turbo, will ever be efficient enough to NOT benefit from an intercooler.
ProChargers come with intercoolers because that's what they decided to do. However, the extra tubing, intercooler and what not raises the price point, and complexity slightly, which is where companies like Vortech and Paxton come in with kits that are more affordable. All air that is compressed will heat up, however, and will benefit from an intercooler.
I also agree that the combos and goals of particular people and situations will dictate what is best for them. The statement was made earlier that ProCharger sponsors NMRA races, but no one runs them. It's just not true, look at SSO, Real Street, And Outlaw 10.5. These are all classes that are dominated, or at least have a very good contingent of ProCharger cars. However, the needs of the EFI renegade racers seem to be best catered to by the YSi trim. Again, certain situations will need certain combos.
I will also agree that turbos are more difficult to install due to the associated hardware, however, there are TONS of turbocharger sizing options and compressors to fit almost every need, and many kits these days don't require cutting of the body (at least the "street" type kits, Thumpers are hard to fit without cutting something). Turbos, when sized properly, are also VERY efficient, and can provide power gains across the entire RPM range.
Paul said:
I agree with you that there are some blanket statements that are without backing or proof. Fact of the matter is this, no supercharger, or turbo, will ever be efficient enough to NOT benefit from an intercooler.
ProChargers come with intercoolers because that's what they decided to do. However, the extra tubing, intercooler and what not raises the price point, and complexity slightly, which is where companies like Vortech and Paxton come in with kits that are more affordable. All air that is compressed will heat up, however, and will benefit from an intercooler.
I also agree that the combos and goals of particular people and situations will dictate what is best for them. The statement was made earlier that ProCharger sponsors NMRA races, but no one runs them. It's just not true, look at SSO, Real Street, And Outlaw 10.5. These are all classes that are dominated, or at least have a very good contingent of ProCharger cars. However, the needs of the EFI renegade racers seem to be best catered to by the YSi trim. Again, certain situations will need certain combos.
I will also agree that turbos are more difficult to install due to the associated hardware, however, there are TONS of turbocharger sizing options and compressors to fit almost every need, and many kits these days don't require cutting of the body (at least the "street" type kits, Thumpers are hard to fit without cutting something). Turbos, when sized properly, are also VERY efficient, and can provide power gains across the entire RPM range.
modo
Well-Known Member
Re: In Response to Javi's Post....
take that same procharger that has a intercooler and run it without the intercooler, now compare the inlet temps from that to the same size cfm vortech and you will see why they come with a intercooler.
renegade is a procharger sponsored event and it is ruled with the ysi. vortech at the time doesn't make very large cfm blowers but that is about to change and will become very interesting.
Hellion94 said:
take that same procharger that has a intercooler and run it without the intercooler, now compare the inlet temps from that to the same size cfm vortech and you will see why they come with a intercooler.
renegade is a procharger sponsored event and it is ruled with the ysi. vortech at the time doesn't make very large cfm blowers but that is about to change and will become very interesting.
Re: In Response to Javi's Post....
Not a big deal, regardless, as stated before, there are certain combinations that require or benefit more from certain kinds of forced induction.
In my opinion, the reason the YSi dominates EFI Renegade is that it was basically designed specifically for the class. It was developed as something that would put all the Vortech cars ahead, which it did. The F1-R hasn't been updated for Renegade in at least 4-5 years, the F1-R's of today are basically the exact same as the F1-R's of 2003 or 4. In Drag Radial, they are basically right on point with the X-trim Vortech's, and faster even in some cases. That's besides the point though, again I'm not trying to start a brand war.
I would say that in just about any case, the best combo for a near-stock 5.0L is a 8-10psi S-trim with a powerpipe. Great low to high RPM power, cheap, easy install. No downsides.
LAFENATU said:
Not a big deal, regardless, as stated before, there are certain combinations that require or benefit more from certain kinds of forced induction.
In my opinion, the reason the YSi dominates EFI Renegade is that it was basically designed specifically for the class. It was developed as something that would put all the Vortech cars ahead, which it did. The F1-R hasn't been updated for Renegade in at least 4-5 years, the F1-R's of today are basically the exact same as the F1-R's of 2003 or 4. In Drag Radial, they are basically right on point with the X-trim Vortech's, and faster even in some cases. That's besides the point though, again I'm not trying to start a brand war.
I would say that in just about any case, the best combo for a near-stock 5.0L is a 8-10psi S-trim with a powerpipe. Great low to high RPM power, cheap, easy install. No downsides.
Re: In Response to Javi's Post....
I had a GT40 combo (GT40 Intake/GT40 Heads/Stock cam) with a Kenne Bell about 8 years ago. Instant power and just overall fun, it was really obnoxious but in a good way. Did it burn up tires, oh yeah.
NOW with that being said, the blower IS a heat pump and gets crazy hot. The KB would not pull up high like a centrifugal. I have never "owned" a centrifugal supercharger but have driven MANY. After driving the two, I would invest in a centrifugal every time.
People will argue consistantly that the instant boost is great BUT in my car I can get to 2800-3000 RPM real fast and boost is flowing by then. I am not concerned about instant boost because in order to be fast..you have to have traction.
I had a GT40 combo (GT40 Intake/GT40 Heads/Stock cam) with a Kenne Bell about 8 years ago. Instant power and just overall fun, it was really obnoxious but in a good way. Did it burn up tires, oh yeah.
NOW with that being said, the blower IS a heat pump and gets crazy hot. The KB would not pull up high like a centrifugal. I have never "owned" a centrifugal supercharger but have driven MANY. After driving the two, I would invest in a centrifugal every time.
People will argue consistantly that the instant boost is great BUT in my car I can get to 2800-3000 RPM real fast and boost is flowing by then. I am not concerned about instant boost because in order to be fast..you have to have traction.
Re: In Response to Javi's Post....
First, thank you for making this thread. I'm a noob, so this is very informative for me.
Second, I plan to build a 5.0 for my 95 cobra as follows: AFR 205 heads, relatively mild cam, ~9:1 compression, and a supercharger of some sort. I also plan on getting either 3:55 or 3:73 gears. It will be driven on the street, and I want it to feel decently fast. More importantly, however, I want it to be fast. For this reason I had been leaning toward a centri. I was planning on getting a Procharger, but now i'm considering going for the Vortech and adding a FMIC. Any thoughts?
First, thank you for making this thread. I'm a noob, so this is very informative for me.
Second, I plan to build a 5.0 for my 95 cobra as follows: AFR 205 heads, relatively mild cam, ~9:1 compression, and a supercharger of some sort. I also plan on getting either 3:55 or 3:73 gears. It will be driven on the street, and I want it to feel decently fast. More importantly, however, I want it to be fast. For this reason I had been leaning toward a centri. I was planning on getting a Procharger, but now i'm considering going for the Vortech and adding a FMIC. Any thoughts?
modo
Well-Known Member
Re: In Response to Javi's Post....
how many cubic inches? 205 is a big head that will want a lot of rpm
a fmic will allow you to run more timing but you do not "need" it. if that is the route you want to go and you get a passenger side mounted blower get the straight discharge volute. that way you can clock the blower down and use a same side inlet / outlet fmic. less bends and you can fit the tubing without cutting anything
personally i would opt for a water / meth injection kit. it will cool the discharge temps below ambient which a air / air fmic will never do AND you will get a increase in octane (50/50 mix with 93 octane is ~118 octane) as well so you can get really aggressive with the tune. its not uncommon to pickup ~50-100 rwhp in doing so over nothing.
or you can pickup vortechs air / water setup (aftercooler). that works great but its not suited for blowers larger then 1200 cfm i believe if memory serves me right.
JB471988 said:
how many cubic inches? 205 is a big head that will want a lot of rpm
a fmic will allow you to run more timing but you do not "need" it. if that is the route you want to go and you get a passenger side mounted blower get the straight discharge volute. that way you can clock the blower down and use a same side inlet / outlet fmic. less bends and you can fit the tubing without cutting anything
personally i would opt for a water / meth injection kit. it will cool the discharge temps below ambient which a air / air fmic will never do AND you will get a increase in octane (50/50 mix with 93 octane is ~118 octane) as well so you can get really aggressive with the tune. its not uncommon to pickup ~50-100 rwhp in doing so over nothing.
or you can pickup vortechs air / water setup (aftercooler). that works great but its not suited for blowers larger then 1200 cfm i believe if memory serves me right.
Re: In Response to Javi's Post....
Sorry, I forgot to mention that i'd like to stroke up to 331. Should I go 185 instead?
I dont particularly want to have an alcohol tank I have to keep filled, so i'm lookin more at the inter or after coolers. Is this the aftercooler setup you mentioned: http://www.vortechsuperchargers.com/product.php?p=19 ? If so, I assume the one for the 86-93 could be made to fit? I'm sure the aftercooler would give me a cooler charge than an intercooler, but would it be worth the cost?
Also, for a reliable street car, not daily driven but at least once weekly, would you recommend the V2 or V3 blower?
modo said:
Sorry, I forgot to mention that i'd like to stroke up to 331. Should I go 185 instead?
I dont particularly want to have an alcohol tank I have to keep filled, so i'm lookin more at the inter or after coolers. Is this the aftercooler setup you mentioned: http://www.vortechsuperchargers.com/product.php?p=19 ? If so, I assume the one for the 86-93 could be made to fit? I'm sure the aftercooler would give me a cooler charge than an intercooler, but would it be worth the cost?
Also, for a reliable street car, not daily driven but at least once weekly, would you recommend the V2 or V3 blower?
modo
Well-Known Member
Re: In Response to Javi's Post....
depends on the rest of the combo and what trim blower you go with. also if this is a stock block then you might as well leave it as a 302 / 306 and use the 165s as with a blower you will be well over 500 anyways
they do or did make a aftercooler for the sn cars. i would call them and see whats up.
aftercooler imo is better but thats your call as it will cost more and there are more parts involved
i use my windshield washer tank for mine since you can use just windshield washer fluid. it lasts a decent amount, depends on your foot. most kits come with a low light you can install and if you tune it correctly even if the tank were to run out or the pump stops working the motor will be fine
as iat rise the eec should be tuned to pull timing and add fuel. simple and effective
JB471988 said:
depends on the rest of the combo and what trim blower you go with. also if this is a stock block then you might as well leave it as a 302 / 306 and use the 165s as with a blower you will be well over 500 anyways
they do or did make a aftercooler for the sn cars. i would call them and see whats up.
aftercooler imo is better but thats your call as it will cost more and there are more parts involved
i use my windshield washer tank for mine since you can use just windshield washer fluid. it lasts a decent amount, depends on your foot. most kits come with a low light you can install and if you tune it correctly even if the tank were to run out or the pump stops working the motor will be fine
as iat rise the eec should be tuned to pull timing and add fuel. simple and effective
Re: In Response to Javi's Post....
Amen! I'm a huge fan of water/meth. It's a great, affordable tool that not only offers more power, but also keeps detonation at bay.
You are right about those heads too, 205 is a big head for a near-stock, or even a pretty heavily modified street combo. There is such thing as too much head flow, as it will decrease velocity, and as modo said, you will have to turn a ton of RPM to make that head work like it should. I would think a 165-185 would be ideal, especially with a blower on board. A combo like that will make power where you can use it, and make he car more enjoyable.
Anyone ever seen the '95 Cobra that had a KB on it and a custom Air to Air intercooler setup? Pretty crazy, but an interesting approach.
modo said:
Amen! I'm a huge fan of water/meth. It's a great, affordable tool that not only offers more power, but also keeps detonation at bay.
You are right about those heads too, 205 is a big head for a near-stock, or even a pretty heavily modified street combo. There is such thing as too much head flow, as it will decrease velocity, and as modo said, you will have to turn a ton of RPM to make that head work like it should. I would think a 165-185 would be ideal, especially with a blower on board. A combo like that will make power where you can use it, and make he car more enjoyable.
Anyone ever seen the '95 Cobra that had a KB on it and a custom Air to Air intercooler setup? Pretty crazy, but an interesting approach.
Re: In Response to Javi's Post....
So what sort of operating RPM ranges are we looking at from say a Vortech to a Paxton to a Kenne Bell on the 5.0L? Like, what RPMS do these things actually make power.
You guys are saying the centris dominate up top, the KBs down low, but in terms of actual operating RPMs, what are we looking at?
So what sort of operating RPM ranges are we looking at from say a Vortech to a Paxton to a Kenne Bell on the 5.0L? Like, what RPMS do these things actually make power.
You guys are saying the centris dominate up top, the KBs down low, but in terms of actual operating RPMs, what are we looking at?
modo
Well-Known Member
Re: In Response to Javi's Post....
wel
when your racing your going to be at 4000+ rpms. pd will be at max boost where the cent will be making boost and continue to be making more as rpms go up.
unless the car is at wot the blowers are not doing anything. bypass valve is open until it doesn't see vacuum.
duh09 said:
wel
duh09 said:
when your racing your going to be at 4000+ rpms. pd will be at max boost where the cent will be making boost and continue to be making more as rpms go up.
unless the car is at wot the blowers are not doing anything. bypass valve is open until it doesn't see vacuum.
Re: In Response to Javi's Post....
Modo is right, basically a Roots or Twin screw will be an off-idle to 4,500 - 5,000 (on a 5.0L) or so type blower. It'll make instant boost, tons of torque and power down low, and taper off as it runs out of efficiency at the top end.
A centrifugal is basically a turbo compressor that's driven by the crank, so it actually relies on RPM in order to create boost, because it's impeller needs to be at a certain RPM to create full boost. (I know that sounds weird, all blowers are driven by the crank, however a Twin Screw or Roots has a completely different construction and compressing style, and doesn't depend on high RPM to make boost). So, in essence, a Centrifugal will make peak boost at the moment you shift, as the boost will continue to climb as the RPM's increase. This doesn't mean that it doesn't make any boost before peak RPM, just that the boost is linear, meaning it steadily increases as the RPM's rise. This is why centrifugals have such a strong top end, because they just keep making boost. So a centri. would be more of a 2,000 or 2,500 to redline type powerband.
Now a turbo will function completely different. Since a turbo's impeller RPM isn't limited by the crank (because there's no belt), it can basically spin as fast as it can possibly spin, and will increase in RPM as fast as possible. The only thing limiting a turbo's boost level is the wastegate, so a turbo will spool up, and then the wastegate will limit the pressure on the turbine (exhaust) side of the turbo, limiting it's RPM and controlling boost. This means that turbos come on hard, from no or very little boost to full boost in a couple hundred RPM, usually in the mid range RPM level, and will pull hard up top as well (as long as they are properly sized for the engine).
duh09 said:
Modo is right, basically a Roots or Twin screw will be an off-idle to 4,500 - 5,000 (on a 5.0L) or so type blower. It'll make instant boost, tons of torque and power down low, and taper off as it runs out of efficiency at the top end.
A centrifugal is basically a turbo compressor that's driven by the crank, so it actually relies on RPM in order to create boost, because it's impeller needs to be at a certain RPM to create full boost. (I know that sounds weird, all blowers are driven by the crank, however a Twin Screw or Roots has a completely different construction and compressing style, and doesn't depend on high RPM to make boost). So, in essence, a Centrifugal will make peak boost at the moment you shift, as the boost will continue to climb as the RPM's increase. This doesn't mean that it doesn't make any boost before peak RPM, just that the boost is linear, meaning it steadily increases as the RPM's rise. This is why centrifugals have such a strong top end, because they just keep making boost. So a centri. would be more of a 2,000 or 2,500 to redline type powerband.
Now a turbo will function completely different. Since a turbo's impeller RPM isn't limited by the crank (because there's no belt), it can basically spin as fast as it can possibly spin, and will increase in RPM as fast as possible. The only thing limiting a turbo's boost level is the wastegate, so a turbo will spool up, and then the wastegate will limit the pressure on the turbine (exhaust) side of the turbo, limiting it's RPM and controlling boost. This means that turbos come on hard, from no or very little boost to full boost in a couple hundred RPM, usually in the mid range RPM level, and will pull hard up top as well (as long as they are properly sized for the engine).
