The Great Boost Discussion Thread - GOOD INFO INSIDE!!!

[modo]

Re: In Response to Javi's Post....

first:
whats a fmic?
and second:
should we make a "theoretical car" to debate about?

1995 GT 5.0 100% OEM - vortec vs. KB vs. Turbo? or is that just a dumb idea?

this is a ery informative thread, so i dont want to see it die with "just pick the right part" as the nail in the coffin. lol.

alot of us greenys can get some hard-core knowlege here, but we'll have to keep the thread going....

fmic = front mount intercooler

there is no said "best". what you want isn't what i might want.

a kb on a pushrod isn't ideal and here is why. the positive displacement blowers do not have the adiabatic efficiency of a cont or turbo. just physics. the discharge temps are going to be higher... much higher. that means less combustible air and more chance of detonation which means lower timing.

people tend to forget them mod motors have that nice air / water heat exchanger where a lifter valley would be on a pushrod. with the pushrod you don't have that option so the only way to cool the discharge temp would be to use water / methanol injection or God forbid hit it with Nitrous... (my take on that is if you need two power adders you didn't build it right the first time)

now a solid cent properly sized (cfm) can make a lot of power. it will take a little more boost out of the cent to equal the same power as a similar sized turbo (taking discharge temps out of the equation for simplicity) due to the parasitic loss of the motor having to turn the blower belt. now that isn't to say that the back pressure from a turbo doesn't have a affect on power but the loss is less.

now imo the turbo setups have their own headaches of they take up a lot more real estate under the hood, hotter under the hood temps, have to cut the car to fit the piping, intercooler.

it does come down to preference realistically. there are positives and negatives to all of them. you can't say what is the best as there is no overall best.

 

[95PGTTech]

Re: In Response to Javi's Post....

Define "most effective."

A roots or twin screw style blower will yield superior seat-of-the-pants everyday street car feel fast-ness. A similarly set up centrifugal would make a superior top end performer, like you might like in a drag car.

Based on what's readily available for the market, I'd say a centri for a 5.0. There really aren't many "big" twin screw or roots blowers for the 5.0 or 5.8 that do much more than a few pounds of boost before losing steam. The same case with 96-98 Cobras. Terminators, and anything C+ headed, on the other hand, has great support from the aftermarket twin screw and roots setups, and I'd say that's a better route.

With how cheap and direct bolt on turbo kits are these days for 5.0's, that's the way I would go.

 

[MustangChris]

Re: In Response to Javi's Post....

Front Mount Intercooler FMIC. For a stockish application Vortech is the way to go. I have had Vortech and Procharger and never realy had any problems with either. Both of them did great for me.

ahahhaha duh. i totally knew that.... it just didnt register, i was thinking about the internal components of the blower assembly...

Define "most effective."

A roots or twin screw style blower will yield superior seat-of-the-pants everyday street car feel fast-ness. A similarly set up centrifugal would make a superior top end performer, like you might like in a drag car.

Based on what's readily available for the market, I'd say a centri for a 5.0. There really aren't many "big" twin screw or roots blowers for the 5.0 or 5.8 that do much more than a few pounds of boost before losing steam. The same case with 96-98 Cobras. Terminators, and anything C+ headed, on the other hand, has great support from the aftermarket twin screw and roots setups, and I'd say that's a better route.

With how cheap and direct bolt on turbo kits are these days for 5.0's, that's the way I would go.

whats the pricing on the 5.0s lookin like? i see generic turbo kits for 4.6s on ebay... i wouldnt trust a ebay turbo, personally... but i was curious about pricing on the 5.0s.

 

[modo]

Re: In Response to Javi's Post....

no power adder kit is "cheap" and if it is cheap you are getting what you pay for. most of those kits have chinese made turbos... good luck with that. a someone decent turbo which is reasonable is the masterpower and they are made in brazil and have had their own issues. if you want a turbo go with a precision or garrett.

no turbo kit is just "bolt on"

 

[modo]

Re: In Response to Javi's Post....

left out turbonetics... they also are quality

 

[96_SVT_Cobra]

Re: In Response to Javi's Post....

well i have a vortech and its nice, i definitely need to upgrade to the ysi. but im with modo, there efficiency is really good and they make really nice power. also i bought mine a t-trim non intercooled tuner kit and did a custom front mount setup on mine with blow through MAF and BOV, and after i did all that i still have about the same or slightly less than a procharger would have set me back. but mine is a modular 4v. and this thread from the original post is the best SC for a 5.0 and i would still have to say Vortech for pretty much the same reasons modo mentioned earlier.

 

[Javi]

Re: In Response to Javi's Post....

ugh? can of worms opened...

 

[MustangChris]

Re: In Response to Javi's Post....

ugh? can of worms opened...

dude... 4.6 > 5.0 ..... (lol.)

 

[LAFENATU]

Re: In Response to Javi's Post....

Procharger uses the intercoolers because they are not effiecient. Amazing how Procharger sponsors the NMRA SSO and a majority of the cars run Vortechs.

Must mean something.

 

[modo]

Re: In Response to Javi's Post....

Procharger uses the intercoolers because they are not effiecient. Amazing how Procharger sponsors the NMRA SSO and a majority of the cars run Vortechs.

Must mean something.

renegade mang... ysi's rule the land

from my friends in the racing world vortech is bringing some heavy hitters out to go after more classes. should be interesting to see what they come out with

 

[MustangChris]

Re: In Response to Javi's Post....

maybe we could list the technical pros and cons of each? that might help future tech-seakers who stumble upon the thread?

 

[95PGTTech]

Re: In Response to Javi's Post....

A lot of people are having success with the very bargain on3 performance turbo systems. There is a lot of information on them on corral.net. So far they have had one documented issue with a kit and they resolved it immediately with the customer (who was also using the kit well beyond its intended power production). They seemed to have cornered the market for affordable, good fit, good customer service. Who knew.

 

[OnyxCobra]

Re: In Response to Javi's Post....

I think when my KB is finally up and running I'm really going to enjoy it. If/when I upgrade my block though i may look into switching to a turbo kit for some much higher numbers.

 

[95PGTTech]

Re: In Response to Javi's Post....

I think you will as well. Due to the rpms a PD/TS/roots blower produces its power and torque, it really gives the stupid-fast, immediate-hit-of-throttle, neck-snapping low rpm grunt that you're really going to feel on the street and passengers are going to go "holy shit."

 

[OnyxCobra]

Re: In Response to Javi's Post....

all of which is exactly what I'm looking for mainly because my car is 99% street use. As long as it is decently fast and doesn't just feel it.

 

[Hellion94]

Re: In Response to Javi's Post....

Nice! This is what I had in mind when I started this thread!

Javi - I wouldn't say it's a can of worms, but more of just a thinking or theorizing out loud type of deal.

Again, I would say stay away from models and manufacturers in the debate unless it is completely relevant. Modo brought up a great point about the lack of availability of an intercooler with a Roots or Twin Screw on a 5.0L, that's a good point. A lot of the centrifugal superchargers on the market don't come with intercoolers, but are more efficient up top, and generate less heat.

And again, another good point is that in my opinion, and the reason I found teh original post interesting is that there really is no "right" answer. I love the classic S-Trim, 5.0L combo - absolutely timeless, but I happen to own a ProCharger car, and absolutely love it. There are obviously so many variables to consider in a discussion like this that I think MustangChris's suggestion of a sort of "control" car is actually a good idea, but still without a solid answer.

I think when I read the original post it made me think about the Fast and The Furious crowd and how many times I heard that "You can't turbocharge a domestic" or how shocked people were when they heard we had a V8 with a turbo on it - Not that I'm comparing Javi to that crowd, because I'm not.

Modo - What are your thoughts on matching or working around the powerband of an engine, as mentioned earlier. In your opinion is there any advantage to doing so, or does it all cancel out in the end? Personally, I think on a broad scale, forced induction choices will rely on the purpose of the car, budget, etc... Like we had said earlier, is it a screaming top end, or a stump-puller that you want? That sort of thing.

Again, let's not make it about brands, but more about the idea of the combinations.

Where do turbo's fall into all of this? Obviously I'm a fan of them, but a lot of people prefer superchargers.

 

[Javi]

Re: In Response to Javi's Post....

I was based on this:

You need an intercooler for KB and or Procharger unlike the Vortech...
As ice man previously stated simplicity,reliability and decent horse power a vortech is the way to go...


I guess you can call me Vortech nutswinger

Procharger uses the intercoolers because they are not effiecient. Amazing how Procharger sponsors the NMRA SSO and a majority of the cars run Vortechs.

Must mean something.

+1

 

[modo]

Re: In Response to Javi's Post....

Nice! This is what I had in mind when I started this thread!

Javi - I wouldn't say it's a can of worms, but more of just a thinking or theorizing out loud type of deal.

Again, I would say stay away from models and manufacturers in the debate unless it is completely relevant. Modo brought up a great point about the lack of availability of an intercooler with a Roots or Twin Screw on a 5.0L, that's a good point. A lot of the centrifugal superchargers on the market don't come with intercoolers, but are more efficient up top, and generate less heat.

And again, another good point is that in my opinion, and the reason I found teh original post interesting is that there really is no "right" answer. I love the classic S-Trim, 5.0L combo - absolutely timeless, but I happen to own a ProCharger car, and absolutely love it. There are obviously so many variables to consider in a discussion like this that I think MustangChris's suggestion of a sort of "control" car is actually a good idea, but still without a solid answer.

I think when I read the original post it made me think about the Fast and The Furious crowd and how many times I heard that "You can't turbocharge a domestic" or how shocked people were when they heard we had a V8 with a turbo on it - Not that I'm comparing Javi to that crowd, because I'm not.

Modo - What are your thoughts on matching or working around the powerband of an engine, as mentioned earlier. In your opinion is there any advantage to doing so, or does it all cancel out in the end? Personally, I think on a broad scale, forced induction choices will rely on the purpose of the car, budget, etc... Like we had said earlier, is it a screaming top end, or a stump-puller that you want? That sort of thing.

Again, let's not make it about brands, but more about the idea of the combinations.

Where do turbo's fall into all of this? Obviously I'm a fan of them, but a lot of people prefer superchargers.

its hard to not bring brand into it because of compressor, cfm, and volute design

i am one of the people that prefer to s/c over putting a turbo on a car. i find it simpler to work on since there is less room taken up and i can remove it completely in less then a hour vs a couple hours. also i will be damned if i have to cut part of the car to make something fit. thats my personal opinion.

of course you have to know where the power band of a particular combo is and choose the right part. your not going to put a 1600+ cfm blower on a stock 5.0 and expect to make the same power as a 1000 cfm even though the 1600 is a better / bigger blower. same reason you wouldn't slap a t3 on a car that should have a thumper on it.



i love when i hear people say that only positive displacement blowers give instant boost. i'd love to take them for a ride and show them how hard a YSI comes on and continues to pull upstairs.

if someone is looking at getting into a blower car they should have a full understanding that what matters is CFM, adiabatic efficiency, and get a hold of the compressor maps. that will tell you exactly what model / trim blower you need. too many people get caught up with i want "x" amount of psi... in reality psi doesn't mean a damn thing.

here is a real good example of use and efficency where psi means nothing

my motor in my sig. with a t-trim (1200 cfm) (6.87/2.95) pullies made 632 rwhp @ 16 lbs on pump gas and conservative timing (~6000 rpm)

same exact motor with a YSI (1600cfm) (8/3) pullies made 659 @ 17 lbs on pump gas and same timing (~6000rpm)

now the ysi did make a little more but did not have the power under the curve as the t even though the ysi is a far superior blower. it isn't being used correctly. t -trim while it wasn't done i was close to the point where it is most efficient. now the ysi is efficient at a much higher rpm then the t so i pullied it up with a (8/2.95) and used better gas to allow for the timing it should. car make 26 lbs at about 7000 rpm and was over 800 rwhp. the power under the curve was rediculous compared to the t previously.


i think the t was a awesome blower and the new Si which is more efficient then a t and has more down low grunt is going to be a killer street blower for stock cars up 600 rwhp cars. its all about the application and use.

 

[Paul]

Re: In Response to Javi's Post....

Wow, lots of stupid blanket statements in this thread.

Couple of thoughts from me, but I'm an idiot:
1. I'd never buy a blower or turbo if I didn't have a compressor map for it.
2. I searched and searched for a compressor for my 422. The Vortech T-Trim fit my needs precisely, and flowed very high volume with high adiabatic efficiency at low RPM. Other blowers and turbos weren't doing it for me. There is no "best" ever - people's combos and goals dictate the compressor that is required.
3. I don't know why one brand of blower would require an intercooler, while another did not. It's more about the adiabatic efficiency of said compressor and the operating environment than it is about what label is on the outside. Boost is boost; the motor doesn't know any better.
4. Blowers are way easier to install than turbos.
5. Turbos sound neato.


...and finally.

I like hamburgers.

Paul.

 

[duh09]

Re: In Response to Javi's Post....

Wow, lots of stupid blanket statements in this thread.

Couple of thoughts from me, but I'm an idiot:
1. I'd never buy a blower or turbo if I didn't have a compressor map for it.
2. I searched and searched for a compressor for my 422. The Vortech T-Trim fit my needs precisely, and flowed very high volume with high adiabatic efficiency at low RPM. Other blowers and turbos weren't doing it for me. There is no "best" ever - people's combos and goals dictate the compressor that is required.
3. I don't know why one brand of blower would require an intercooler, while another did not. It's more about the adiabatic efficiency of said compressor and the operating environment than it is about what label is on the outside. Boost is boost; the motor doesn't know any better.
4. Blowers are way easier to install than turbos.
5. Turbos sound neato.


...and finally.

I like hamburgers.

Paul.

I like hamburgers too! Let's be friends and you can swap that motor out of that silly little notch and into my 95, since we're such great pals.



I like this thread. I've been wondering KB vs Vortech for a long time and theres a pretty good bit of an info stream coming through here pretty quickly. Goooo info!