4.6 to 5.4 swap problems

[OLD H2S]

Gary , You are one of the experts on the swap could you fill in some of the common problems. I am not looking for just one answer but your evolution on how to make this work.
-The block is taller, how does it fit and rub
-Can you run hydroboost?, AC?, Long tube headers?
- What are the steering shaft solutions? Pictures?
-Do exhaust down tubes have to be split wider?
-Wider "H" pipe?
-Front shock tower interference?
-Shock tower strut brace changes?
-Battery relocation?
-Oil filter size and location.
-Hood closing.
-Height of the TB.
-Engine mounting.
-Fuel requirements.
-Clutch PP upgrade.
-Extra torque problems for the frame.
-Changes in PCM, tuning.

This is a big request, but it is hard to get to 400RWHP on a 4.6 without boost, Trick Flow can do it but when you read the formula they use it is not a street car DD any more. From day one the 4.6 has been fighting with the 5.0 pre '96 engines over torque and where the pike is in the curve with the 5.0 winning down low for better drivability.

 

[evilcw311]

Old fart you just opened Pandora’s box asking him that!!!!! Lmao

Just go big cubic inch push rod and never look back!!!


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[OLD H2S]

If he does a good job it will be a stickie.

 

[Burninriverdiver]

I picture Gary going through a mountain of notes right now coming up with the perfect response. I'm staying tuned to learn something for my future endeavors

 

[96blak54]

Yes to all

Headers are a pain with a 4.6l. Take that same header on a wider/taller engine and youll have a real pain!

Dont expect to pull valve covers.

Exhaust has to break down into 2 sections in order to mount up. Mine is an Hpipe with a band clamp at the H.

Only one intake and plenum combo fits under a stock hood and thatll be an HPS. Any plenum on it will allow the hood to shut.

 

[96blak54]

Once upon a time, i used to think the swap wasnt really worth it untill this last build.

You all remember the 18.1compression build,..right? How much success and failure it was.....well i pulled it out and built the lowest budget engine possible with the intent knowing it would fly apart. To my surprise, the thing turned out to be relatively strong.

How much of a budget? Lets just say there is a freeze plug floating around inside the water cavities around the cylinders. I removed the main bearings only for inspection. ....to find how much trash gets imbedded into the bearings from hundreds of thousands of miles. Yes, i reused them. Stock rods, but new rod bearings and same old bolts. I reused the headgaskets from the 18.1comp build. Reused headbolts. Reused the same npi heads. Used navi flat top pistons with new rings. One couldnt get any more junkier than this!

 

[OLD H2S]

Good show. The freeze plug floating around is common. Do shortie headers fit better over all with just the flanges moved up 3/4" in the stock location? How do you deal with the 3mm deck height, even with flat top pistons that is a lot of VtoP clearance and low CR. Any steering shaft interference?

 

[OLD H2S]

Your going to have to show us the pics of the top end fitment, the HPS web site is pretty generic. If I run the Edelbrock intake I can not us the strut tower brace on my car with the 4.6 as it is taller set up. Are you using a cut and welded Eddy intake? The nPI heads use a smaller valve cover than the PI heads do they hit the hydroboost?

 

[96blak54]

Your going to have to show us the pics of the top end fitment, the HPS web site is pretty generic. If I run the Edelbrock intake I can not us the strut tower brace on my car with the 4.6 as it is taller set up. Are you using a cut and welded Eddy intake? The nPI heads use a smaller valve cover than the PI heads do they hit the hydroboost?

Just forget about hps...they long gone. An intake will surface at times forsale, but its not often. Not many were made.

I split the edelbrock, added material, welded it. Also modified it to use stock fuel rails.

The npi covers are a tad smaller and might be half an inch of clearance next to the hydroboost.

No the stock 96-up tower brace will not fit, but the 94-95 should. Search the differences and youll see the front bar of the brace tracts in front of the engine were ours tract over the engine. I still need one for mine!

 

[96blak54]

Good show. The freeze plug floating around is common. Do shortie headers fit better over all with just the flanges moved up 3/4" in the stock location? How do you deal with the 3mm deck height, even with flat top pistons that is a lot of VtoP clearance and low CR. Any steering shaft interference?

Shorties fit the same as stock logs is what ive been told. I have always had used the frpp shorties. Other shorties may fit, but i dont see how anything other than stock made similar headers can fit. I had a/c and it made things tight, but is possible. I cant see long tubes working well with out modifications. These shorties ride pretty close to the main frame structure on the passenger side and only left enough room for a/c lines. Which caused dropping the engine in a bigger pain.

I purchased a year specific Hpipe from summit and had to add length to the pipe just shortly after the manifold flanges. The system doesnt fit up under the car like it should and hangs closer to the ground do to the engine width and extentions, but works well. I get over most speed bumps without scrapes.

About deck height, All 5.4l have at least -0.108" from zero deck down in the cylinder. Ive always measured right at .108 before zero deck with all my builds. Ive read reports of others being between .108 to .120. Ive always used stock pistons and aftermarket pistons usually are .010" less compression height, so thats most likely where the differences come. Unless longer rods are used or a special 1.330" compression height piston is used, you wont find off the shelf parts that will adapt in these engines easily. Im not saying impossible, but wet sleeving the engine and decking it .050" can use a piston out there that ive done forgot what from. I ruled out it was cheapest to order special pistons.

My compression now is a tad over 13.1static. I decked my npi heads .120". Doing so causes the timing chain some serious slop that the stock tentioner can not take up, so i made a set of longer tentioner pistons. And locked out the tentioners by using washers behind the pistons. Check out the pic below

Also i have a 274comp cams and stock valve springs. My 274cams apparently are one offs and not off the shelf. I do believe they were sent back to be regound. The exhaust base circle is smaller by .050". If we believe lashers lock once oil pressure is applied then that means my exhaust valve lift is .650"....which is impossible without valve seal interference. And any theory of the exhaust having extra lift would cause damage. The .050" smaller base circle delays exhaust opening.

 

[OLD H2S]

An Ls is sounding better and better...

 

[evilcw311]

Windsor builds can make big power and is far less work than a ls swap.

Why aren’t you happy with your 4.6 anymore?? Are you totally against boost?


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[Silver95bird]

I still can't figure out how blak is making power with a self admitted 13:1 cr. Everything I know about engines says at that cr, pump gas would be impossible. And if it were possible, the ignition timing would be backed off so far it'd run like crap. But there's the car. How?

 

[lwarrior1016]

I still can't figure out how blak is making power with a self admitted 13:1 cr. Everything I know about engines says at that cr, pump gas would be impossible. And if it were possible, the ignition timing would be backed off so far it'd run like crap. But there's the car. How?

My 4.6 is running the same compression with full timing on 93 octane also, and its going through an automatic transmission. No problems at all, not a lick of detonation.

 

[OLD H2S]

I was at 14.7CR on one engine @ 28 degrees with no knocking and the the tuner took It to 36 degrees and could not make it knock but the power was going down after a high at 28. That's when they started to believe in the close PtoV build style. The TF head broke a valve guide and took out the engine and after talking to some other engine builders they had the same thing happen to them. I am not in love with Ford or TrickFlow.
I am trying to get good low end torque in a NA build and high CR does it but you have to do the close PtoV style to get good timing with 93 octane.

-I have built 3 Terminator motors and am over 4V and FI. I was the first one in the country to put a Cobra motor in a Marauder WITHOUT cutting it up, took 17 times of R&R the engine to get it right, I am use to fitment problems but I am also sick of the trouble. Ford was able to get 365HP out of the 4.6 NA and I am at 375 now so I am at a sweet spot, TF has bigger numbers on their web site but it is a dedicated drag engine and low rpm torque doesn't count.

-The Holley Sniper and FITech systems are making other engines options easier than dealing with the 4.6.build costs. 281 CID that needs FI to get beyond where I am now is not cheap or reliable. 50k miles is the most I have got before the engine is worn out.

-The TF and ported heads I have made are overkill and wasted on the 4.6 that can only suck 500CFM at 5000RPM, the next thing they fit on is the 5.4.

- The 3V 4.6 came in at 325HP stock and I have a set of those heads sitting around. The VVT mess on the front of the drivers cam has 4 sensor pick ups, I only need 1 pick up to run in a stock '96 PCM car, which 3 do I cut off? Lock out the VVT, some big cams, the 2005+ WAP 3V engine is cheap, light,plentiful, makes the same power as the LS 4.8

- Right now the 3V swap is still a PITA, but I am looking at my spare parts pile and....

 

[evilcw311]

How about a 7.3l powerstroke?!? Any way to make that fit??

Now that’s some torque!!!!!


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[NEURON]

How about a 7.3l powerstroke?!? Any way to make that fit??

Now that’s some torque!!!!!


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Shouldn't be a problem. although he might break his record of 17 tries.
Weird, never heard of the TF valve guide problems before and can find nothing on the internet about it. You would think if several engine builders noticed it it would be on the internet, go figure.

 

[OLD H2S]

Ain't nobody talk'n. TF will not answer the phone or return email. I sent them back to Summit and no contact or anything, then I come home one day and a new set is sitting on the porch???
7.3 looks like the best Ford made, mine buddy has had them all and that one is the best.
- Sorry I am a whiny bitch, I'm just sad after all the builds and rebuilds the engine I have now is a mish mash of left overs that is only 10.4 CR with forged piston slap rattling around in a WAP block that needs to be opened to .030 to be tight again.
- I might have enough parts for an iron 4.6 junk yard GARY build but my nPI heads need pro work to finish and I have not had a job in a year so the wife is tight as a tick.
- Now if I sell the WAP and get a straight 5.4 block and cut .100 off the deck and fix the nPI heads and use my old nasty Bullitt cams and some flat top cast pistons and and and..
- Which is why I looking at my 3V heads and pressing for answers.

 

[Silver95bird]

14.7 is Nascar territory. I'd expect that to require 104 minimum. Dang. Amazing work. I thought 10.5-11 in my car would be pushing it.

I love the 3v idea too but the intake over the top of the alt is a killer. Can the intake be turned backwards? Adapters to a 4v intake?

If I had enough cash to do half of what I see you guys doing, I'd have all my projects done and be having a cold one. Lol. I make decent money, but young kids and remodeling the house stretch my money and especially my time thin. Best wishes friend.

 

[evilcw311]

14.7 is Nascar territory. I'd expect that to require 104 minimum. Dang. Amazing work. I thought 10.5-11 in my car would be pushing it.

I love the 3v idea too but the intake over the top of the alt is a killer. Can the intake be turned backwards? Adapters to a 4v intake?

If I had enough cash to do half of what I see you guys doing, I'd have all my projects done and be having a cold one. Lol. I make decent money, but young kids and remodeling the house stretch my money and especially my time thin. Best wishes friend.

Now you know why my beast has basically been a shell on jack stands collecting dust for over 3 years!!!!! Lmao


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