Chasing that annoying 4V "Rattle"...again

Discussion in '96-04 - 4V Specific' started by Wild Horses, Nov 9, 2016.

  1. Wild Horses

    Wild Horses Active Member

    Messages:
    791
    Likes Received:
    13
    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2014
    Wanted to update this thread to include what I found out to be the issue. It was never the valve train. Since it only made the noise under light load I didn't want to risk a $7k long block with a no belt drive. Even though it prob wouldn't hurt anything. The problem was and still is inside the damn Vortech. The impeller gears are worn just enough to let it rattle with belt vibration. 4v Vortech guys, check out the head unit first. I've been reading that ALOT of the V2s rattle or have "gear chatter".
     
  2. dancadman

    dancadman New Member

    Messages:
    11
    Likes Received:
    1
    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2017
    Location:
    Dothan, AL
    So this thread is rather old, however this sounds exactly like what my Mach 1 is doing. Interesting thing on mine is that the engine was just rebuilt last year by Jasper Engines (which now I understand may have been a mistake) and it is bone stock. Just like Wild Horses, mine only makes the rattle when it's under load. If I sit still with it out of gear and rev it or hold the accelerator at the same RPM, it sounds perfect. The shop that pulled the motor and put in the rebuilt motor seems to think there isn't anything they can do about it. I think that for the $8,000 it cost me for the motor and their labor, it should be perfect. Thoughts? Any ideas of what exactly I should tell them? It's been doing it since I got it back from them.
     
  3. 96blak54

    96blak54 Legend

    Messages:
    7,570
    Likes Received:
    913
    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2011
    Location:
    Ky
    $8grand....dang straight!
     
  4. 01yellercobra

    01yellercobra Active Member

    Messages:
    628
    Likes Received:
    191
    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2018
    Does your car have a blower on it or is it 100% stock? Why did you have the engine rebuilt?
     
  5. evilcw311

    evilcw311 Most Evil Mod! Staff Member Staff

    Messages:
    7,441
    Likes Received:
    2,059
    Joined:
    May 9, 2010
    Location:
    Louisville, KY
    For $8k you best believe they better make it right. Unfortunately the motor probably still has the original tensioners and stuff in it. Jasper has a bad habit of putting parts like that back in if inspected and they think it’s ok. Problem is most of those people don’t have a clue.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  6. dancadman

    dancadman New Member

    Messages:
    11
    Likes Received:
    1
    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2017
    Location:
    Dothan, AL
    That's what I'm afraid of.

    @01yellercobra I kept it stock. I had it rebuilt because I let the oil get oil and it slung a rod. I really hate admitting that, but that's what happened. I check it at least once a week now.

    I would like to add that I've also noticed that when it's at regular operating temp, (or at least the stock temp gauge is right in the middle) it doesn't make the noise. The engine and labor are supposed to be covered for 36 months. A couple of other items I noticed is a bolt missing from the accelerator cable mount, the shaker squeaks now and it didn't before they worked on it, and I noticed that there's fuel around the passenger side fuel rail (not a puddle, but kind of like it sprayed out maybe during hard acceleration and just kind of makes the area look wet) . If it was yours and you were going to the shop to discuss it with them, what would you say?

    Kind off off-topic, but if I have to pull it again, I would like to put high lift cams in it. My dad had a 1965 Mercury Comet Cyclone with a 289 that he rebuilt (and I kind of helped, I was probably 12 at the time) and it had a 302 crank and rods, high lift cam and 11:1 pistons with a Holley double pump carb, and it sounded amazing. One year he was stationed in Korea and once a week he had me start it and let it run for a few minutes and I just loved how it sounded. Once it was warmed up and idling, it sounded like it was going to quit, but never did. Don't know why, but that sounds great to me. I'd love to have that in this car with this engine.
     
  7. 01yellercobra

    01yellercobra Active Member

    Messages:
    628
    Likes Received:
    191
    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2018
    I was asking because I like to know a few extra things before I start bashing a shop. I've read posts where guys have bashed a shop after having work done and whatever went wrong had nothing to do with the work the shop did. Such as a rattling blower that they never opened.

    I would definitely be raising some issues if they didn't complete the job. It's on them to work with Jasper about getting thecorrect. Just remember labor isn't always covered.

    Going with cams is a whole other can of worms. Depending on the cams you'll need springs. And generally a lopey cam sucks at part throttle. You'll need gears and probably a modified intake. And don't forget the tune. A lot of expense for a sound IMO.
     
  8. dancadman

    dancadman New Member

    Messages:
    11
    Likes Received:
    1
    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2017
    Location:
    Dothan, AL
    Thanks for the info. Definitely don't need to worry about the cams at this point, but I need to get the other stuff checked out. I do realize that there may be wear items that aren't covered by either warranty, which is one reason that I haven't been back yet. That and it will make things difficult with transportation, since that's my daily driver. Probably also a good reason to leave it stock...

    I'll be back with updates.
     
  9. Wild Horses

    Wild Horses Active Member

    Messages:
    791
    Likes Received:
    13
    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2014
    HEY GUYS! Been a long time and surprised to see this thread from so long ago up near the top. Well UPDATE. Had absolutely nothing to do with the valvetrain or heads. It was most definitely broken ring lands in two brand new non-forged pistons. I drove the car like that for so long too.

    Since then the bottom end has been fully rebuilt/bored .20/ and completely forged. She’s got a tiny lil pulley on the blower and a bunch of fuel goodies. No rattle whatsoever with the same heads! Def was the pistons!
     
    white95 and dancadman like this.
  10. dancadman

    dancadman New Member

    Messages:
    11
    Likes Received:
    1
    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2017
    Location:
    Dothan, AL
    I really appreciate you coming back and updating with that! Along with the skepticism from @evilcw311 about Jasper engines, this makes much more sense to me. Because I also have noticed that every once in a while, there is a bit of white smoke right when it's started. Doesn't happen every time. But that would make sense that some oil is bypassing one or more of the rings and burning off during startup. Good stuff. I now have something pretty solid to go talk to the mechanics about.
     
  11. Wild Horses

    Wild Horses Active Member

    Messages:
    791
    Likes Received:
    13
    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2014
    The ridiculous part about it was how well it ran other than that rattle under light acceleration. I mean the car even made 450 to the wheels. The only thing that tipped me off was blow by getting worse and worse until it looked like a freight train if I pulled the oil fill cap off. It was def a tricky issue.
     
  12. dancadman

    dancadman New Member

    Messages:
    11
    Likes Received:
    1
    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2017
    Location:
    Dothan, AL
    So, it seems to me that Jasper has most likely reinstalled the same pistons and rings that were in the car before. Before I slung the rod, I had similar symptoms with the puff of smoke on startup and it would explain why oil was being consumed before it was rebuilt. Convincing the shop that installed it to redo it, may take some lawyer power. However, their paperwork says that the 3yr/36,000 mile warranty covers labor and the engine, so I guess we'll see soon enough. Thanks again!
     
  13. dancadman

    dancadman New Member

    Messages:
    11
    Likes Received:
    1
    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2017
    Location:
    Dothan, AL
    @Wild Horses one more question. When you pulled it back apart, was there any noticeable damage to the pistons or the block? You wouldn't happen to have some pictures of what it looked like with the heads off before and after you rebuilt, do you?
     
  14. Wild Horses

    Wild Horses Active Member

    Messages:
    791
    Likes Received:
    13
    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2014
    It had blown out the numbers 4&5 pistons ring lands out and scored the walls up so it got bored out. It was a combo of going too cheap on pistons and a bad tune. Those two cylinders were a little darker from burning oil. Now it has forged Manleys in it. I plan on posting some new rebuild pics sometime soon.
     
  15. Wild Horses

    Wild Horses Active Member

    Messages:
    791
    Likes Received:
    13
    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2014
    Top one was my rattle you can see it was broken awhile and got dark from burning. Bottom pic was the new blow out that had smoke shooting out of my oil cap. :)

    Oh and never buy these pistons. MMR sells them and idk why.

    Posting these for the guys that were following this thread.
    875318A6-24C5-4C71-8B91-1474DEDEA844.jpeg 487A1A0E-4B9D-4F6C-B27C-0AC5A9D38DCB.jpeg
     
  16. evilcw311

    evilcw311 Most Evil Mod! Staff Member Staff

    Messages:
    7,441
    Likes Received:
    2,059
    Joined:
    May 9, 2010
    Location:
    Louisville, KY
    That’s some quality lookin pistons there!!!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
    Wild Horses likes this.
  17. 96blak54

    96blak54 Legend

    Messages:
    7,570
    Likes Received:
    913
    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2011
    Location:
    Ky
    Are the pistons hyputectic?

    Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk
     
  18. lwarrior1016

    lwarrior1016 Moderator Staff SN95 Supporter

    Messages:
    5,749
    Likes Received:
    820
    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2014
    Location:
    South Mississippi
    Those are speedpro pistons, there is nothing wrong with them, they just have their place and apparently it wasn’t in your engine. I used these pistons in @Frank.JD.Perez engine and took it over 7k rpm, and so has he......a lot. They are holding up just fine.


    Sucks to see the damage though.
     
    white95 and Frank.JD.Perez like this.
  19. OLD H2S

    OLD H2S Well-Known Member SN95 Supporter

    Messages:
    1,186
    Likes Received:
    217
    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2015
    Location:
    Silver Spring Maryland
    Speed pro make the Manley pistons.
     
  20. Wild Horses

    Wild Horses Active Member

    Messages:
    791
    Likes Received:
    13
    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2014
    The thing that ticked me off was how much MMR marked them up. I’ve bought a lot of parts from them and definitely still will, but they list them as “500hp budget pistons” for $350 or $450... something like that. Summit has the same ones for half their price.
    So I guess I should say don’t ever buy these and expect to make 500hp safely.
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2019