Arguments about N/A vs. Boost

Raffaelli · Feb 21, 2012

A customer of mine has a new edge GT.

He has pretty much all the bolt-ons and more on his PI motor. (Put cams in it, TB, headers, U/D, ect).

Thing is still slow as hell.

He needs to do the same thing you do.
GEARS!

And after that buy a nitrous kit and have at it. Your wanting your cake and eatn it too. Make 280 to the tires with 1500 bucks is tough on a 5.0, let alone a 2V.

the.greg · Feb 21, 2012

MadStang said:
he could easily get there.

$900 for MHS PI stock mod heads
$450 for HP292S cams (like mine)
$100 for PI Intake
$150 JLT RAI
$100 Plenum
$75 TB
$500 MAC LT's
$400 Dyno Tune
$300 gasketry + misc bolts and fluids
==
$2975 total

and this for all brand new parts....

This barely works out under 3k, but thats assuming he can do all his own labor. However he has a automatic so he will have to have a big stall to be streetable. Also thats not taking into account he would need gears to take advantage of that high revving motor. So no n/a isn't realistic for him and under 3k budget.

98rocket · Feb 21, 2012

Here's my thoughts.

You can buy a set of PI heads and intake for next to nothing these days.
CIA
75mm TB and elbow
under drive pulleys
4.10's
LCA's and maybe UCA's if you want. These help out tremendously!
Tune, your going to have to use 93 oct if your serious
LT's, H-pipe, cat back, I live in FLA so I don't run cats..
You want to make the motor as efficient as possible by getting the air in and out as easy as possible.

These are things that I have on my car and its a blast to drive. Except for the heads and intake.
It won't hang with any high horse power car, but its a blast to drive. The 4.10's are the key, they really wake these cars up..

I would bet that my list could reach at least 240hp-250HP to the wheels. Your on a budget so think smart..GL

justinschmidt1 · Feb 21, 2012

MadStang said:
One thing I've always been told with motors is the only true way to understand how to make power with an engine is to do it naturally aspirated first, does it cost more? sure but I'd rather understand my motor than just throw boost at it because as everyone knows... Boost just overshadows an engine's deficiency...

haha, suit yourself.

I understand perfectly how my motor makes power....I also understand that mod motors love boost and decided that boost was the way to go after years of research and am 100% happy with my decision.

Engines arent that complicated.

justinschmidt1 · Feb 21, 2012

Ferocious said:
At the moment, that seems like the more logical and simplest for me. A PI intake and some boost and around what numbers should i be seeing?

I don't have the time to do an motor swap on this car. I'm almost positive an engine swap is out of the picture

At my age, boost seems easier though. It just seems much more simpler to bolt on a turbo, tune it, maybe upgrade my injectors, and call it done.
I feel like with the limited experience and knowledge I have on motors, I'd be better off building a strong, reliable n/a engine when i have more experience, money, and time.

Boost seems like a simple way to have more fun with my car, and that's all i'm really aiming for right now. At first i considered going n/a because it seemed cheaper, but it appears i'm wrong..

MadStang said:
n/a is definitely more expensive but more rewarding when done right imo. boost is definitely the easy way out if you're looking for cheap adrenaline.

lol Madstang you are so biased....more rewarding? wtf....Making more power is rewarding to me haha.

With a pi intake and a decent bit of boost 97 stanger laid down like 370 rwhp through an auto.

You can make great power with just a pi intake and some boost and you can put together a used vortech kit really cheap if you know where to look

Ferocious · Feb 21, 2012

justinschmidt1 said:
haha, suit yourself.
I understand perfectly how my motor makes power....I also understand that mod motors love boost and decided that boost was the way to go after years of research and am 100% happy with my decision.
Engines arent that complicated.

Since you know much more about boost than i do, put this into perspective for me.
What costs am i looking at it for a kit and what numbers should i expect with my full catback, cai, and a future PI intake?

the.greg · Feb 21, 2012

+1
I just prefer to do things the cost effective way I guess... Or pay more and still have to rev the nuts off my engine to make power in the name of "understanding how to make power". Id rather just make it fast!

MadStang · Feb 21, 2012

the.greg said:
This barely works out under 3k, but thats assuming he can do all his own labor. However he has a automatic so he will have to have a big stall to be streetable. Also thats not taking into account he would need gears to take advantage of that high revving motor. So no n/a isn't realistic for him and under 3k budget.

Again as noted, it's all new parts. the $900 for stock mod heads could be reduced down to $200 if he finds a set of well kept heads. etc. etc.

Ferocious · Feb 21, 2012

justinschmidt1 said:
With a pi intake and a decent bit of boost 97 stanger laid down like 370 rwhp through an auto.
You can make great power with just a pi intake and some boost and you can put together a used vortech kit really cheap if you know where to look

Looks like you answered my question lol. Through the original 4speed auto right? I dont wanna blow my money swapping in a new tranny as well.
I'm just looking for a more enjoyable car with a bit more power than it came with.

And the 4:10 gears are a must am i right? I heard the autos love the gear. But even if i went for a blower or turbo, would 4:10 be suitable or should i look towards 3:73 or 3:55s?

MadStang · Feb 21, 2012

justinschmidt1 said:
haha, suit yourself.

I understand perfectly how my motor makes power....I also understand that mod motors love boost and decided that boost was the way to go after years of research and am 100% happy with my decision.

Engines arent that complicated.

We're not going to see eye to eye on this so I'm just going to avoid the conversation, I had the same argument with someone that decided just adding more and more boost was a means of going faster, in his case it was not, but that's besides the point. I don't want to derail his thread.

the.greg · Feb 21, 2012

MadStang said:
Again as noted, it's all new parts. the $900 for stock mod heads could be reduced down to $200 if he finds a set of well kept heads. etc. etc.

And as I noted it wont run worth a darn in a stock auto car.

justinschmidt1 · Feb 21, 2012

Ferocious said:
Looks like you answered my question lol. Through the original 4speed auto right? I dont wanna blow my money swapping in a new tranny as well.
I'm just looking for a more enjoyable car with a bit more power than it came with.

And the 4:10 gears are a must am i right? I heard the autos love the gear. But even if i went for a blower or turbo, would 4:10 be suitable or should i look towards 3:73 or 3:55s?

Yea, the stock 4r70w, 4 speed. I would suggest a nice trans cooler and a JMOD if you want the stock trans to last. 4.10s will work but you will run out of gear pretty fast...thats really the only reason to go to a 3.73.

MadStang · Feb 21, 2012

justinschmidt1 said:
lol Madstang you are so biased....more rewarding? wtf....Making more power is rewarding to me haha.

With a pi intake and a decent bit of boost 97 stanger laid down like 370 rwhp through an auto.

You can make great power with just a pi intake and some boost and you can put together a used vortech kit really cheap if you know where to look

noticed how i said IMO. It's more rewarding to me that to make power when people say it can't be done etc. etc. I'm not biased, my dream is to build the roush's current motor with a tork tech kenne bell kit. I like boost, but, I wanted to see what I could do with an N/A motor before I got there. As far as "making more power" that's really a mute point. I don't know what my car is going to put down on the dyno, since it's the first of it's kind. Just don't count out an N/A car when they are fully capable of making a decent amount of power.

justinschmidt1 · Feb 21, 2012

MadStang said:
We're not going to see eye to eye on this so I'm just going to avoid the conversation, I had the same argument with someone that decided just adding more and more boost was a means of going faster, in his case it was not, but that's besides the point. I don't want to derail his thread.

Not sure what thats supposed to mean...ive ran the exact same pulley/boost since day 1 in this car and only add power with efficiency, not boost.

Ive also done every bolt on ever to my NPI including pi intake, pi cams, long tube headers, o/r mid pipe, intake, tb, plenum, under drive pulleys, tunes, etc etc.

Ive now swapped to a full PI motor and still have all those bolt ons + the edelbrock upper intake manifold.

Yea, ive got stock pi cams and stock pi heads but it really doesnt matter much since the bottom end cant handle any power anyway.

I didnt just throw a blower on the car and call it a day.

I went through NA crap and realized that it wasnt giving me the results I wanted so I decided to get some boost.

97stanger · Feb 21, 2012

I first started off doing every single bolt on in the book for a non pi 2v, then slowly started putting PI parts on, then finally went to boost. Do yourself a favor...highly consider putting a blower on, a PI manifold, get a tune and you will easily outperform any h/c/i setup within that price range for your car. Like Justin said through STOCK NON PI HEADS AND CAMS, I was pushing 370/380 through a stock 4R70w. You wont come anywhere near that with h/c/i on these cars. Whats the point in putting 5-7k in a motor to be disappointed with the results? ya know?

justinschmidt1 · Feb 21, 2012

I dont count out NA cars, I just know that its far more cost effective to make power with boost on these motors.

justinschmidt1 · Feb 21, 2012

97stanger said:
Whats the point in putting 5-7k in a motor to be disappointed with the results? ya know?

Exactly.

Anyway, you can pick up a used vortech head unit for 600-800 bucks probably.

I believe the bracket assembly is 230 bucks

discharge is like 200 bucks

get a power pipe for 250?

Your looking at about 1500 bucks there...you would also need a tune, injectors and maf but you can do the whole thing for less than 3k no problem

97stanger · Feb 21, 2012

^ thats basically the bottom line

of course you can make nice power n/a, but to hang with a nicely built boosted motor you will need top notch heads, a large cam, and at this point drivability suffers

Ferocious · Feb 21, 2012

Looks like for now im gonna end up boosting it. Like i've stated multiple times, at my age, with the limited money i have, the cheaper method seems to grasp my attention.

I get where Madstangs coming from though. Having a n/a motor that puts down huge power seems so rewarding especially if you built it yourself.
Last month i met a guy outside of pepboys who had a built Chevy Nova. The engine looked clean and simple, no hidden turbo or anything. The car itself ran 10's and laid about 550rwhp through an auto n/a motor.
I talked to the guy and he took me for a ride in it, said he had been building for about a decade and doesnt see it being complete anytime soon.
He said the thing that made him the most proud though, was having built the motor up completely himself.

Sure boost is easier and seems more effective for me, but i've always wanted to build a naturally aspirated motor to beat on all the s/c and turboe'd others. It just seems more badass.
But right now, i'll stick to having fun driving my car instead of worrying about building a great motor.

justinschmidt1 · Feb 21, 2012

97stanger said:
^ thats basically the bottom line

of course you can make nice power n/a, but to hang with a nicely built boosted motor you will need top notch heads, a large cam, and at this point drivability suffers

Ive seen some badass NA builds but they are definitely costly and they are still slower than what my stock longblock PI ran with 10-11 psi.

Theres a guy over at modularfords that goes by Yellow02AutoGT

he makes 355 rwhp/350 tq through an auto with a 4000 stall.

he has a cobra shortblock with forged internals 11:7 compression ratio with tfs 44cc heads, custom cams etc etc. He has a raceweight of about 3200 lbs and revs to around 7k

Either way, he has a best of like 11.65@ 115 mph 1.60 60 foot and averages high 11s.

Thats nice and all but he has a shit ton of money in the car, a stalled auto, very light race weight, and EXTREMELY badass NA build and his numbers are still not that impressive to me....

Point is, if you wanna go fast with a 4.6 2v, dont go NA.