Next direction for street/track car

Discussion in 'Road Racing' started by v6mustang94, Nov 16, 2014.

  1. ba#97

    ba#97 Well-Known Member

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    I run out at thunderhill with quite a long straightaway (120+) and trust me, my stock gt power was just fine. even with a long straight, most of the time you're spending is in corners. I really do recommend you focus on weight reduction (which will do more for you lap times wise and will be more noticeable than power....and it's free!). getting more seat time is key to going faster. I will say this to even an experienced guy...more power is the last thing you need. I recommend some racing seats for sure and putting the car on a diet and just keep getting out there. especially if you've only been out there a few times. in the grand scheme of things, more power will net you what....a couple mph at the end of the straight? that's not a lot of time saved over that long of a course. now think of it the other way, less weight, car can handle through the corners with more ease, which ultimately gives you a few things....braking later and harder into the corners, carrying more speed into the corners, getting back to the gas sooner, which ultimately means you get off the corner faster, and then bam...at the end of the straight you just got onto...you have the same amount of speed or close to it that you would have had by adding that hp. and all....for free! and....that money you didn't spend on motor mods, you just spent on another track day...where you shaved even more time off your laps with that extra seat time.
     
  2. ba#97

    ba#97 Well-Known Member

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    also, I have run rs3's on course and they are an awesome street tire that I highly recommend. I hear the BFG rivals are great.
     
  3. v6mustang94

    v6mustang94 Well-Known Member

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    Let's go back to my first post then. I mentioned racing seats, removing the rear seat, and relocating the battery to the trunk. I also already pulled the smog pump. Not looking to go hardcore yet, but what are some other simple weight savings?
     
  4. ba#97

    ba#97 Well-Known Member

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    if you don't need the carpet you can lose it, make sure to remove the stuff out of the trunk whenever you're on course, if you don't need it or care then I removed the stereo all together. removing what you can from the front of the car is definitely important. this all being said, just remove simple obvious stuff for the time being. you aren't in a full on race mode or out there racing time trials so take out the obvious heavy stuff you don't want or need and then get out there and have fun. at your stage in tracking your car, the most important thing right now is seat time. don't take this all too seriously, that's where a lot of people kill the hobby right away. have fun with it and keep having fun with it. ultimately at track days you aren't racing anyone, just have some fun. the more time you spend at the track the easier it will be for you to figure out your goals with the car. right now it seems like you just want to go to the track from time to time. so just do it! enjoy it.
     
  5. v6mustang94

    v6mustang94 Well-Known Member

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    Is there sound deadening under the carpet or anything?
     
  6. hotmustang95

    hotmustang95 Active Member

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    Do you still use the radio? If not removing it and all the speakers from the rear and the doors will free up weight. Do you use the ac or does it work? If not there's another ton of weight that can be removed. You can remove the blower assembly from under the pass side dash too. Forget about putting the battery in the trunk. Only drag racers move the battery to the trunk. Road racers move the battery to behind the pass seat. Even better idea is to just buy an Odyssey battery and keep it in the stock location. Only weighs 16 pounds.

    What about freeing up HP? By removing the AC and smog and running a shorter belt you free up hp. Also adding an aluminum DS and FW will free up power and allow for quicker revs.
     
  7. ba#97

    ba#97 Well-Known Member

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    a little bit. all the things hotmustang95 has mentioned and the things I have would all do a great job of lowering the weight of your car easily. that being said, what is your intent with this vehicle in the end? just a track day car or do you intend to run it in a specific class of time trials or something?
     
  8. v6mustang94

    v6mustang94 Well-Known Member

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    At this point, street and track. I'm willing to drop some comforts, but it will see a lot of street time for now. I'm not afraid of a little extra nvh, but would like to have AC and radio. I know that limits me, but appreciate the ideas you guys are tossing out there. At least it might help me get creative.
     
  9. RichV

    RichV Well-Known Member

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    What weight are you at now?
     
  10. v6mustang94

    v6mustang94 Well-Known Member

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    Stock weight. I removed the smog pump and pipes for it, and have a catless exhaust. However, I added full length SFCs. Normally I run without the spare tire and jack. So very minimal changes if any.

    I don't think I'm willing to do enough right now to make any big difference. Other than racing seats and removing the rear seat.
     
  11. v6mustang94

    v6mustang94 Well-Known Member

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    Plus the 18" chrome Saleens aren't helping much. 60lbs with rubber for the rears, and I think 55lbs for the fronts. If anything, I'm probably heavier than stock at this point.

    Car has power locks, windows, driver's seat. Mach 460. No keyless entry. Leather Interior; so new seats and removing the rear should net some decent gains. I don't like leather anyways.

    I think it's obvious I'm not at the point where I'm looking to build a true track car. I love every thing about being on track, but I need to get consistent track time before I start tearing apart the interior. I love hearing everyone's ideas though. I can see the obvious places to save weight, but I'm hoping some of you veterans might know some tricks of the trade I'm not aware of. I've owned an sn-95 for 10 years. I'm pretty familiar with the ins and outs, but I've never ripped apart the interior to see what's behind all the plastic and carpet.

    I can probably remove the windshield washer reservoir and tubing. Location of it just sucks to get to.
     
  12. RichV

    RichV Well-Known Member

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    Your big weight savers are gonna be under the hood, stock seats, power accessories, and wheels/tires.

    My 94 after gutting it, installed cage (6 point with halo, NASCAR bar, and x-brace on passenger side), but with fluids and 1/4 tank came in at 3080lbs with me in it (190). So it could easily get under 3000 without a full cage. But how far do you want to go on a streetable car??
     
  13. ba#97

    ba#97 Well-Known Member

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    I applaud you for being able to admit that you know you need more experience before really diving into all the random mods. I think that's a big issue people have when they want to get started on track. they think speed is all about hp and the car. when in all reality the best way to go fast is to get seat time and get better. get out to the track and have fun.
     
  14. v6mustang94

    v6mustang94 Well-Known Member

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    I think my biggest struggle is finding the balance of street and track. I 100% understand where you guys are coming from with pounding seat time into my mind, and I know from experience my car is fun as is on track. Will more HP make a better track car? No. Do I want more HP and stuff for my car just because? Yes.

    I have friend that has a '99 Camaro that he has at least $40k into. Part of that is he spent too much money on a motor upgrade, blew the motor, and had to get a new one that he also spent too much on. He also spent thousands on adjustable suspension (LCAs, shocks, torque arm, panhard rod... etc...) that he has no idea how to adjust properly. He has never had it on a track. He is exactly the car guy I don't want to be. I don't want to blindly throw money at my car, but I do still want to turn wrenches on it for fun. I just want to do it the most productive way possible. While the perfect track car isn't my end goal at this point, the goal is to have the purpose steered toward driving it on road courses.

    Again, I appreciate everyone's feedback. It's helping me get ideas and the direction I want to go next. Being in MN, the car sits under a cover for about 6months. So this is the time of year I pick a new modification or two for it.
     
  15. mcglsr2

    mcglsr2 Well-Known Member SN95 Supporter

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    I sort of get where you are coming from, I had a similar dilemma - except that I knew ahead of time I wanted mine to be more track, less street. The reason people are saying "seat time" first is to help you mod in the right direction. Meaning this: you can add more HP. However, that will actually make the car *harder* to drive at the track (for a novice driver) - it will be more dangerous, and you'll be slower. It will also be really frustrating because subconsciously (and maybe consciously) you'll be thinking "WTF I have 400 whp and I'm being munched by stupid little Miatas!" The stock Mustang's weakness really is the suspension and braking, not the engine (although the engine *is* a weakness, it's not the immediate weakness).

    If you want to turn wrenches, it's all good, I totally understand - looking into going coil-overs, or something like that. You'll see more immediate benefit at the track then adding power (which will make things worse). If you just want to add power to the car, then go ahead - of course no one will stop you, it's your car mang. But just understand that you will be making your track life much more difficult. If you plan on streeting the car 80 - 90% of the time, and track it for fun a couple times a year, then by all means, throw power at it. If you are even somewhat seriously considering track duty, I urge you to pause and think about what the good folks here are saying: get a feel for the car first, find the weakness. Fix it. Drive it, find the next weakness. Fix it. So on and so on. Unless you've already done a lot to the suspension and brakes, I can promise you the engine won't be the first item.

    Of course, do what you would like to do, the above is just why folks are saying seat time. It's tough to fight off the power bug until other things are sorted first (trust me, I know first hand, I've been fighting it), but worth it if you really want to track. If you really want to street it, then do whatever your wallet lets you do :)

    Edit: for reference, my car is essentially track oriented, but still streetable so I can drive it to tracks (I don't want to deal with trailers right now) and still enjoy some comforts - it still has A/C, power doors/windows, and a radio. So not a completely dedicated track car.
     
  16. RichV

    RichV Well-Known Member

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    All good advice there: ^

    My 0.02 from instructing this year.

    Had a student with a brand new BMW 335iX. In his mind, fast meant feeling g-forces. So he would throttle right after braking, on the throttle through the entire turn. I though we were gonna end up in the weeds a couple of times, I couldn't break him from this habit. Took him out in a 00 GT, all stock. He just about peed his pants, he kept asking what's done to it. Wouldn't believe me that it was stock.

    Another student with a WRX, couldn't understand the right way to brake after high speed straights. Don't coast!!! Full throttle to brake-shift-turn. Once he got that, he got much faster and I graduated him to level 2.

    Older (65ish) guy, 370Z. Had many lessons but just couldn't put it all together. We were getting passed by everyone from Civics, to Miatas, even some anemic Abarth. I had my work cut out, his apexes needed work, braking was WAAAYYY early, was not staying on the throttle downhill, and every time dude shifted and braked it was upsetting the car too much. So we worked on being smooth, hitting the apexes, 3rd session focused on staying on the throttle. Last session of the day we never got passed by anyone, and we passed a new 5.0 GT that he didn't believe he could. The old man was grinning ear to ear at the end of the day.

    My point to all this, is the car's ability is much more than your ability in the beginning. It takes a solid season to really understand your car and its characteristics. Then you'll know where to start.
     
  17. mcglsr2

    mcglsr2 Well-Known Member SN95 Supporter

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    I can totally back up what RichV is saying on two separate occasions:

    1) I was at Sebring in a HPDE (1) session with a guy in a 2007 Mustang GT/CS. Those cars have 300 hp /320 tq - my car had 185 whp /240 tq (I had it dyno'd). I was faster than him. So he had at least 100 whp more than I did. The driver came up to me and asked me what I had done to the car, and how much power I had. At that point, I had good brakes, and an okay suspension set-up. When I told him 185 to the wheels he called me a liar and walked away. I'm pretty sure his car was stock (stock brakes, stock suspension).

    2) Again at Sebring, I was pitted next to a BMW 335i - I talked with the guy about what he had done. This was the twin-turbo 6 cyl, with an under-rated 306 hp / 295 tq. IIRC, he had some tuning done, and I think upgraded intercoolers (don't remember if the turbos were stock or not). He took some videos in his car of the sessions, and I got the youtube link for them. They show me passing him.

    The point is, both cars should have munched me - 50/50 on the Mustang GT/CS because no brakes, no suspension; but the BMW should have destroyed me. But they didn't. If I were to drag race them, yes, I would lose. But I didn't lose going around a track. I learned a lot, and had a blast. With a measly 185 whp. I noticed some issues with the car while I was there, and decided to fix them. The issue? Nope, it wasn't power - I did not work on the engine next. Instead, I bought coil-overs. Because the car was rolling too much, and diving too much in the braking zones. There is more speed to be had on the corners, and I couldn't get at it because the car was fighting me too much/I wasn't skilled enough. Now, I didn't have enough power on the straights. Fact. And this will be addressed. But the straights weren't the current issue. It was the handling.

    In summary, you can have a lot of fun with your car with stock power, and you will learn tons. If I had more power, I would have gotten into a lot more trouble in the corners, and because I could have powered through the straights, it would have been harder for me to realize that I wasn't getting everything I could out of the corners. Don't think your car is slow because you have stock power - UNLESS you drag race. If all you do is drag race, you will hate it, I promise this. Driving down the highway, I had a Mazdaspeed3 line up next to me wanting to play. I didn't, because I would have gotten destroyed. But I was still smiling, because I knew if we got on a track, I probably would have surprised him. And that's good enough for me. ;)
     
  18. ba#97

    ba#97 Well-Known Member

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    These last 3 posts are by far the most informative in this thread! written very well.
     
  19. g36 monkey

    g36 monkey Moderator Staff SN95 Supporter

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    Yes, excellent information. I have similar experience eating a few S2k's, a WRX, a Lexus IS250 and something else I don't remember (it's been a while) when my old V6 was bone stock with 170k on the clock. Driver mod makes all the difference.
     
  20. hotmustang95

    hotmustang95 Active Member

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    100%
    One of the first things I learned as a student. I let my instructor drive my car and he did things with it that I didn't know it could do. I ran 5 events in one year without really doing anything to the car. Just goofy stuff like different shift knob and better pedals. As I got faster the car let me know what needed to be upgraded. By the second year I bought a set of dedicated track wheels and tires and stiffer springs.