Timing way off, can't get it right

[duh09]

I need some help, I recently had to do a headgasket job on my 88 5.0L and I can't seem to get the timing right. I forgot to mark the dizzy when I pulled it out but I was planning on throwing my 95's MSD coil and cap and rotor on it, bump the timing a bit, blah blah so I wasn't super worried about it.

Anyways, my timing is way off. It looks like it's quite a bit ATC, but it's way off the marks so it's hard to tell. I thought I might have thrown it in there 180* off but I tried swapping it around and got the backfiring that you get with it being 180* out and put it back. Is it possible it get it 90* out or something like that? If I can't figure it out with the light, I'll pull the plug and find TDC and drop it try setting that way but tired of working on it and calling it a night. I'm a bit stumped but I may just be overlooking something stupid. Timing light is on plug 1, I even tried rotating all the wires to make sure I didn't have them off 1 in either direction.The spout connector is pulled.

Help me so I can stop driving a POS Samurai and drive my Mustang again. :tongue3:

 

[rz5.0]

Pull the spoyt. Try to start it as you turn the dizzy by hand.. if you can get it to start it be easier to set then. .

 

[duh09]

I already had the spout pulled. Did a little more googling and tried a different way to sort of set a base timing... Pulled the dizzy out, marked #1, set the crank at 10*, and dropped the dizzy back in, this time pointing at number 1. Got the timing closer for sure but still not firing off. Need to get an extra set of hands with me so I can play with the timing and hopefully get it fired up tomorrow and then adjust it.

 

[OnyxCobra]

It's possible you're only off a tooth, i had the problem where I tried turning the disty to set the timing but I couldn't turn it far enough. So I rotated it back, pulled it out moved it one tooth in the right direction, reinstalled it and it timed right up.

 

[RichV]

Maybe a bunk timing light?

 

[CC'S95GT]

I'd start from scratch.
set #1 on TDC, verify crank mark is on ZERO, stab dizzy and make sure rotor is pointing at #1. Re-verify your HO firing order.
Pull spout, Timing light on #1 plug wire.

The car should start at 0* timing.

 

[Corndiddly]

Do you have the stock harmonic balancer?

 

[GT Rob]

What corn said had mine go bad and I couldn't get it to set the timeing

 

[duh09]

Still rocking the stock harmonic balancer, haven't paid enough attention to make sure its good but I'll make a point to here in a second. However the car was running fine before the head gasket job and haven't had any of the vibrations typical of the rubber coming out of the balancer but I'll def look.

I'm gonna pull #1 and double triple check I'm at TDC and try resetting the dizzy that way, hopefully I'll have some progress here soon. I need a running car so bad.

 

[toyman]

That's TDC on the compression stroke not TDC on the exhaust stroke.

 

[duh09]

Car is right on the money on timing I'm pretty sure. Reset it twice tonight and no improvement. If the timing was set on the exhaust stroke, wouldn't that make it 180* out and lead to those backfires I had earlier when I tried moving it 180*?

Anyways, I tried a few things. When I pulled the plug, I noticed it was sorta wet from fuel so I pulled them all, hit the inertia switch to kill the fuel pump, and turned it over a few times to try and get any extra fuel out, dried off the plugs, reinstalled and tried again and no noticeable difference. I tried it with the plugs in, fuel pump off (on accident I will admit) and the car kinda of gave a couple "bumps". There was like a low thump through the exhaust once or twice but nothing with fuel pump on and everything going. Possibly burning some of the fuel left in the cylinder? IDK. I'm not sure if this is still a timing issue and I'm overlooking something stupid or if I'm just having ignition issues. I suppose I could try throwing the timing light on all the wires just to make sure they're all getting fire, may pick up a new cap, rotor, and wires tomorrow just to be 100% sure.

Really hit a wall here and not sure where to go from here. Could a bad enough vacuum leak cause it to not start? All I'm getting is it turning over, does not seem to be firing off at all. I feel like my next step is to pull the upper intake off and start going through the wiring harness and making sure everything is right, no pinched wires, or anything like that, and going through all the vacuum lines as well. Will the car start without the spout connected? I've tried it both ways now just to be sure but would like to know for future reference.


Just for the record, the balancer looks good, no noticeable rubber missing/sticking out. I've tried 2 different coils, 2 different caps, reset the timing a few times, double checked the firing order, 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8 is what I was going off of. Pretty confident every cylinder is getting fuel (every plug was wet), not 100% sure every plug is igniting. Only time I've gotten any sort of noise besides it turning over was a pop/thump when turning the car over with the fuel pump OFF.


Thanks for the help so far guys. Maybe I can get this solved before next week.

 

[CC'S95GT]

Do you still have the origional dizzy? PIP?
Another possible thing is your cam timing might be a tooth off when you replaced the chain. I'm sure you don't want to hear that.

 

[RichV]

Back to basics here...

You're using the 5.0 HO firing order, are the wires placed for CCW distributor rotation? And you are using the Ford cylinder numbering?

What about the harmonic? Any indication that it may have slipped? Causing the timing scale to be off?

 

[duh09]

Original dizzy and PIP to my knowledge.
I did not touch the timing chain so should be the same as when it was running.
I am using the correct firing order and wire placement.
I have no reason to believe the balancer has slipped/moved.

 

[RichV]

I just did my HGs and a cam swap. When the crank is on point at 0* (by the pointer), the crank/harmonic keyway is pointing straight up. Those 2 reference points should tell you if the harmonic has slipped. Remove the crank bolt, look directly in the middle and mark the direction of the keyway on the pulley or where you can see it. Then, put it back in, and turn the crank to 0* at the pointer. Your keyway mark should be pointing straight up towards the water pump.

If you remove the passenger valvecover, you should be able to see if the #1 valves are closed when the crank is on mark. If you move the crank clockwise the exhaust valve should start opening after some rotation (not right away), it will be the one above your exhaust port.

 

[NJcobra94]

with the amount of times you've set the timing it seems like you have and ignition problem... at this point test everything, power to coil/ignition box, check any ground you can find. and if you set the dizzy 180*backwards I've seen that jump teeth on a loose timing chain

 

[full force]

Still seems like distributor timing is off to me, if chain was not touched and all wiring is right, its timing... just kepp rotating till it fires, unless you missed something else totally, but sure seems like timing to me... one tooth off can really make a difference..

 

[toyman]

One tooth off should be well within the physical turning limit of the distributor. Is the car running or not? Some posts seem to indicate it is and others it isn't? Are all the sensor leads plugged in and are they tight?

 

[duh09]

Haven't had much time to update, between my crappy jobs, spending the weekend in Nashville with some friends for Import Alliance, and trying to find a new job, I haven't touched the Mustang.

For the record, the car has NOT ran since being pulled apart. It will turn over, but I am not getting any sort of actual ignition of fuel. No real sounds of anything other than the motor turning over. Doesn't sound like it's trying to start, just simply turning over.

Here's the gameplan for Thursday when I'll actually have enough time to really tear into it again. I have bought a new set of wires and an Accel cap and rotor and I'm planning on putting them on and pulling the plugs to be sure I am getting fire to them. After I get the wires and stuff on, I'm gonna gonna double check the timing, make sure the balancer isn't off by marking the keyway like Rich recommended, run a couple set of jumper cables to the chassis to be sure it's not a ground issue, and give it a shot.

If that doesn't get it, I'm going to check compression on all the cylinders and grab a fuel pressure tester too to double check that I am getting enough gas as well. I'm still having a hard time believing it's timing related for the simple reason that everything seems spot on. The timing marks are lining up and I cannot get it to run in any sort of moveable range of the dizzy. If the timing is actually off, it's going to be the timing chain and I'll check other things first.

If I haven't found an issue with that, the upper intake is coming back off, I'm going to go through the wiring and checking it and have a friend who loves wiring to go right behind me and check it as well and replace just as many vacuum lines and vacuum connectors as I can. Will probably pull the valve covers and make sure the valve are where they need to be and whatnot and put it back together, and try it again.

If that doesn't fix it, I'm going to call a local cheap but great mechanic to come over and give me a hand pulling the front end of the motor off, replacing the timing chain and checking all that to make sure my issue isn't there and to put some experienced eyes on the whole thing.

If that doesn't fix it, I will be burning it to a crisp haha.


Anything else you guys think could be the culprit that could and should be tested? Also, before I started having the overheating issues from my cooling system failing, I didn't have any sort of other issues out of the car. Ran like a 88 5.0 should.

 

[CC'S95GT]

The only thing that I could think on would be the dizzy.
the PIP (inside the dizzy) tells the computer when to fire plugs and keep the FP running after the initial 5 second run time.