Spoilers and Wings - the Difference

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mcglsr2

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So now I ask myself which one would work better for me, the nascar type 7.5" high spoiler I have on now that sticks straight up, or the Shinoda 15'' whale tail design that stuck straight outward???? Wish I had a wind tunnel.

That is the crux of the matter - it's very easy for me to discuss the concepts of how things work - actually knowing how a specific wing or spoiler affects the car it is installed on is really, really hard. That's the black magic trial-and-error part. Hopefully with a wind tunnel, like you said :) If I were to speculate on the Shinoda vs your Nascar styled one, at the level we are currently at, it's probably a negligible difference. The best advice I can give is pick your favorite track and data log your speed at the end of straights with one, then put on the other spoiler and data log. Compare the top speeds, the higher one, assuming you were driving the same, would be the spoiler that is reducing drag "the best."

On obvious advantage of the one you just did is adjustments. Your Shinoda was not adjustable at all. Theoretically, it should be much easier for you to adjust your Nascar spoiler should you need to.
 

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There is a lot of good information posted in here, as long as you know what to take at face value, and what you have to translate into the correct terminology. Some videos use the words spoiler and wing interchangeably, which they are not. Airplanes fly with wings, no one ever calls them spoilers, because they are different. And they say that spoilers create downforce as if it's the same as saying spoilers reduce lift, and those are two different things as well.

Wings create downforce, and as a function/design of an airfoil, as in the way it is shaped on purpose to influence and interact with the air around it, creates drag.

A spoiler essentially is a wall creating a high pressure zone where there is normally a low pressure zone. So, the negative side effects of adding a wind catching wall are outweighed by the benefits of cancelling the low pressure zone that is already there due to the flow separation off the back windscreen and trunk. The flow separation off the back of the car is creating a low pressure system that generates lift. The spoiler reduces this lift effect by cancelling some of low pressure zone with high pressure. Reducing lift and creating downforce are not the same.

The only way a spoiler will produce drag is if it is creating downforce. That means that the spoiler is too large for whatever application it is being used. If you want downforce, install a wing... not an oversized spoiler. A spoiler should be designed to reduce as much lift as possible, without creating drag.
 

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Think of it this way: an airplane doesn't fly with spoilers. It flies using wings. And they are never called spoilers. Because they are different things.

but airplane spoilers do cause drag or "spoil" the airflow over the wings so maybe that's not a perfect comparison to cars. I find it hard to believe that not a single car spoiler on the market doesn't add drag, as I've heard of people removing stock spoilers to increase top speeds.
 

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I think the issue is a lot of stock spoilers/wings aren't suppose to be functional. They're just thrown on for the sport look. The effects weren't predicted or tested, I'm sure a lot of the stock spoilers could in fact cause drag or undesired effects.

I've been studying flow characterists a lot lately, such as in pipes or ducts. Its not nearly as complicated as aerodynamics on a car bur even some of those predictions can be difficult or near impossible to correctly predict.

I don't think wing vs spoiler is completely set in stone, but the desired effect of a proper wing or spoiler has been discussed here.
 
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mcglsr2

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but airplane spoilers do cause drag or "spoil" the airflow over the wings so maybe that's not a perfect comparison to cars. I find it hard to believe that not a single car spoiler on the market doesn't add drag, as I've heard of people removing stock spoilers to increase top speeds.

No - again, spoilers do not cause drag. That is not the point of spoilers as applied to cars. Everyone thinks spoilers create drag. They do the opposite. I still stand by the airplane analogy. Perhaps I didn't word it the best - as yes, airplanes do have spoilers. But the spoilers are not what makes the airplane fly. The wings do. My point was there is a difference between wings and spoilers, that they are not the same things as a lot of automotive articles seem to think they are.

I pulled this from the very first paragraph about aeronautical (airplane) spoilers in Wikipedia:

Wikipedia said:
In aeronautics, a spoiler (sometimes called a lift dumper) is a device intended to reduce lift in an aircraft. Spoilers are plates on the top surface of a wing that can be extended upward into the airflow to spoil it. By so doing, the spoiler creates a controlled stall over the portion of the wing behind it, greatly reducing the lift of that wing section. Spoilers differ from airbrakes in that airbrakes are designed to increase drag without affecting lift, while spoilers reduce lift as well as increasing drag.

"TIME MOTHER-EFFING OUT!" You say (not you, specifically OnyxCobra, I mean the colloquial "you"). "That article, right there, at the very end says that the spoiler ALSO increases drag. You are so wrong this whole time, brochacho!" A-Ha! Except that we must realize that the spoiler on the wing of an aircraft does NOT have a frickin' windshield, roof and rear window right in front it. Where the air was traveling over that wing just fine before, all of a sudden now it sees a spoiler. Which does indeed spoil that nice flowing air. So, since it went from super smooth airflow (no [or very very little] turbulence with almost no drag to now seeing a spoiler, it will increase drag. But this is an airplane wing and NOT a car.

Because a car has a windshield, roof and rear window (and side mirrors, and stuff) right in front, the behavior is different, it must be different. It's all about air turbulence. In a car with no spoiler, the air is already turbulent (thus drag). By adding a spoiler, it smooths out the transition of turbulent air back into the smoother flowing air, reducing turbulence, which reduces drag. It makes the already turbulent air less turbulent - which reduces drag.

My airplane analogy was to point out that there is a real and concrete difference between wings and spoilers (which the automotive world seems to ignore). Not to imply that the wings and spoilers work the same on an airplane as they do a car. Because they work differently - obviously, one is a plane, the other a car.
 
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mcglsr2

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I think the issue is a lot of stock spoilers/wings aren't suppose to be functional. They're just thrown on for the sport look. The effects weren't predicted or tested, I'm sure a lot of the stock spoilers could in fact cause drag or undesired effects.

I've been studying flow characterists a lot lately, such as in pipes or ducts. Its not nearly as complicated as aerodynamics on a car bur even some of those predictions can be difficult or near impossible to correctly predict.

I don't think wing vs spoiler is completely set in stone, but the desired effect of a proper wing or spoiler has been discussed here.

I, of course, do not know whether a spoiler on a production car actually works or not. There's no way I can without doing all kinds of testing and wind tunnels and stuff. In the past, most manufactures did not do wind testing. Probably, as you say, just threw on a spoiler for looks and who knows what it actually did to the drag. These days, with MPG's being so important, and the automotive industry just being more sophisticated (because computers and progress and stuff), I would not be surprised to see more and more brands doing this type of testing.

So - does the stock spoiler on a SN95 really reduce drag? I don't know. However, logic tells me that conceptually it does. So I would tend to think, initially, that it would on our cars. Now, someone can say "But Scott, my friend removed his spoiler and he went faster." Well. I may or may not change my opinion of spoilers on our cars. What other conditions were present when said friend went faster? Was it cooler outside? Was the track grippier? I don't know. So I will take that "went faster" with a grain of salt. If, instead, that guys said "But Scott, my friend spent the whole day at the track, alternating runs with the spoiler on and the spoiler off, aggregated all of the data, averaged out the top speeds/times for runs with the spoiler and runs without, and you know - he went faster overall without the spoiler" Then, THEN I would believe the spoilers don't do shit on our cars.

Or if someone were able to dig up a wind tunnel test on our cars showing the smoke trails with and without a spoiler. Although I'm sure Ford didn't do this. But maybe they did back then? :dontknow:

Anyway, like you say, I don't really know how effective they are on our cars. But I am currently inclined to think they help more than they hurt, because of the way they work. I don't see anything about our cars rear-end design that would make it think it creates less turbulent air without a spoiler than it would with. I come back to that truck example. Tailgate up, better MPG's. I don't think manufactures did wind tunnel testing on a truck bed with the tailgate. But yet - it reduces drag. So it works. It just plain works. Granted, a car is different, and there is less of a "pocket" on the trunk than there is with a truck bed, but here I am inclined to believe that it "just works" - though perhaps not to the same extent as on a truck.
 
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mcglsr2

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Is it possible for a Nascar spoiler to create downforce? Sure, in how they set it up. Is it possible for an F1 wing to reduce drag without creating downforce? Maybe so - depending how they set it up. I don't know these things - if I implied that I did, then I apologize. I am not a Nascar designer just as much as I am not an F1 designer.

All I'm saying, is that if one is expecting a lot of downforce from a spoiler, then they should use a wing instead - that's what wings are for. If one is hoping to make the car move through the airstream smoother and reduce drag, then they should use a spoiler and not a wing. That's all.

And someone previously mentioned drag from a car pushing through the air, implying that a spoiler pushing through the air would also create drag. It's true that a car creates drag by pushing through the air. Keep in mind though that the spoiler is already behind a part of the car that has pushed through the air - that drag was already created. The spoiler can improve the "profile" of the car through the air, negating some of that drag that was created - thus improving drag. I am not saying that a spoiler will cancel out all drag created by a car. I'm not sure that's possible. But it can help improve on the drag that was already created.

And the above is typically why one does not want a huge wing sticking up above the car. Because now you are presenting even more surface air (above and beyond what the car already presents) to airflow, creating drag. It's possible one could generate the same downforce (or very close to) with a wing that is at the roof line or just below, without exposing more surface area above and beyond the car. Though, the bigger the wing, the more downforce (and thus drag) - so it all depends on what one is trying to accomplish.
 

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I work on airplanes for a living so my POV is more airplane based. But airflow is airflow and a wing is a wing whether it's used on a airplane or car. Right?
First let me say that anythying in the airflow creates drag.
And if the air isn't allowed to come back together smoothly after it is split to go around, over and under the car produces turbulant air and that's drag.
Just look at the back of airplanes and f1 cars. Everything is allowed to smoothly transition back together.
If you want lift/downforce. Then drag will have to be an acceptable consequence.
NASCAR also learned this in the 90's when the t-bird was killing the grand prix's and monte carlo's when they still had the flat back window. After GM put the aero window on the back, the playing field was then leveled. That little window caused lots of drag because of the turbulant air behind it.
There's also something you can add to the roof of your car to make your low wing/spoiler more effective and that's called "vortex gererators". These little things will help the air follow the back of the window so the air will now hit the wing or spoiler.

I have no doubt that a wing that's in smooth air is going to work better that than one that's behind the back window.
But I highly doubt a spoiler on your trunk is going to make your car more aerodynamic because your still going to have the turbulant air on the rear bumper.

I'm surprised we havent heard from MADSTANG yet on the topic.
 

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Side note: NASCAR stopped using a "wing" because it was producing incredible amounts of lift when the cars would spin.
 
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mcglsr2

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But I highly doubt a spoiler on your trunk is going to make your car more aerodynamic because your still going to have the turbulant air on the rear bumper.

All good info. On the item I quoted above: why is this hard to believe? The air will still be turbulent, yes, but a spoiler will help decrease the turbulence. Answer this question: Why is a truck with an open truck bed and tailgate up more efficient (gets better MPG) than that same truck with the tailgate down?
 

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All good info. On the item I quoted above: why is this hard to believe? The air will still be turbulent, yes, but a spoiler will help decrease the turbulence. Answer this question: Why is a truck with an open truck bed and tailgate up more efficient (gets better MPG) than that same truck with the tailgate down?

http://www.autoblog.com/2014/08/26/ford-f-150-tailgate-up-down-mpg-video/

Tailgate creates a "bubble" or air in the bed that forces the air coming over the cab to then go over the bubble and clear the tailgate which would be similar to a slopped rear window.
But what they don't address is the dirty air behind the tailgate. Which would also be the same area asbehind the rear bumper on the mustang. It's still turbulant air.

Mythbusters also did a show about it too. and it seemed to be easier to see that with the smoke wand
 
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mcglsr2

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http://www.autoblog.com/2014/08/26/ford-f-150-tailgate-up-down-mpg-video/

Tailgate creates a "bubble" or air in the bed that forces the air coming over the cab to then go over the bubble and clear the tailgate which would be similar to a slopped rear window.
But what they don't address is the dirty air behind the tailgate. Which would also be the same area asbehind the rear bumper on the mustang. It's still turbulant air.

Mythbusters also did a show about it too. and it seemed to be easier to see that with the smoke wand

What you just described with the air bubble is exactly what a spoiler does. It creates an air bubble between itself and the rear window, which helps the air go over it. And it does address the dirty air behind the truck, and it's done so like this: with the tailgate down, no air bubble is created, so the air goes through the bed. And creates really dirty air behind the truck. With the tailgate up, and the air bubble in place, the air gets a smoother ride over the back of the truck - it still produces dirty air, but it is LESS dirty than if the tailgate were down. Boom, improvement in efficiency, better MPG, less drag.

Now, apply that to a car with no spoiler (tailgate down) to the same car with a spoiler (tailgate up). There will still be dirty air behind a car because it is pushing through air and it is car-shaped. However, just like the tailgate being up, the spoiler alters the profile (by creating that air bubble) such that the air leaving the car is less dirty than it would be otherwise. This "less dirty"-ness is essentially less drag.

Edit: I posted a link to the mythbusters article on the truck tailgate in a previous post.
 

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I see where your going. But it's still apples and oranges,
truck-flat rear window (lots of drag) and flat tailgate (lots of drag)
car- sloped rear window (small drag) and spoiler which is an extension of the trunk lip(small drag).
The air bubble behind the cab of the truck is probably 4'-5' while the bubble behind the rear window is less than 1'. If there is any aerodynamic improvement with or without the spoiler it would be miniscule.
 
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mcglsr2

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I see where your going. But it's still apples and oranges,
truck-flat rear window (lots of drag) and flat tailgate (lots of drag)
car- sloped rear window (small drag) and spoiler which is an extension of the trunk lip(small drag).
The air bubble behind the cab of the truck is probably 4'-5' while the bubble behind the rear window is less than 1'. If there is any aerodynamic improvement with or without the spoiler it would be miniscule.

It's not apples and oranges, it just apples of slightly different shapes. The concept, the theory of what is happening is the same, and applicable to both. The only difference is the degree to which it happens. But it is still the same effect. Because the truck is more brick-like, I would expect the reduction in drag due to the tailgate being up to be quite a lot - enough to be measurable by Myth Busters in fact. On a car, because the shape is a tad more favorable, the reduction in drag might not be as "severe." But it is still there.
 

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I think Orange hit it on the head. Spoilers that are designed to do what you're describing probably work fantastic, but on most production cars spoilers are added for one reason and that is styling. They are not wind tunnel tested or designed around what will function the best, they are added to make cars look better and that's it. I would not be surprised at all if stock spoilers created drag, in fact i'd be surprised if they didn't. You can say they don't all you want but until you have hard proof to prove otherwise it's just going to keep going back and forth.
 

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I do wish these things could be wind tunnel tested.
There's always ways to find out how to make cars faster or handle better. What aerodynamic changes actually work though.
 

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Research the term "coanda" pronounced co-won-day.

Basically this term refers to an air stream passing over a surface and its characteristics pass the ending edge of the surface. Some of that stream clingings to that surface as the stream travels over it. When the surface is gone and the stream still jetting on....something happens under that jet stream just after the end point of that surface. A tumbling roll effect of air rotating in the same direction as the jet stream passes over. This tumbling roll actually helps the air stream to pass over and actually "bend", since air doesnt like to alter shape when moving fast, but will bend when turbulent air is present. Changing the shape of an airstream is better done with the use of air its self. Knowing what air does before, during, and after a given surface, a person can shape the air in the direction they want.

Coanda is low pressure made from a higher pressure source. Low pressure tumbling/rotating same direction as the jet leaving the surface.

The intended purpose for coanda can yield many uses! From airplane wings, spoilers, all the way down to the intake and exhaust ports of any engine. Heck the margine on the valves play a major roll with hp output! Coanda figures into the margine!

Enjoy!
 

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