I don't know if I totally agree with the philosophy of the spoilers. They generate downforce by altering the air flow and literally causing the air to move in a different path, however they also create a LOT of drag at high speeds. Have you tried to look into actual wings?
Swords Evolution
- Thread starter hotmustang95
- Start date
DavidBoren
Active Member
The whole philosophy of aero is debatable. Do you go all out on aero from the start, and adjust your suspension for equal balanced traction? Or do you set up your suspension and then add aero where needed to balance traction? Do you eliminate drag as much as possible with belly pans and diffusers, just to add spoilers and splitters? Does the spoiler create more drag than a full belly pan removes?
I guess the question would be did you need any additional downforce over the rear axle to balance traction?
If it's just a this will be F'ing cool mod, not calculated to provide balanced traction, then the whole issue of drag or spoilers vs wings is irrelevant.
Either way, great work on the nascar spoiler. It looks boss as hell.
I guess the question would be did you need any additional downforce over the rear axle to balance traction?
If it's just a this will be F'ing cool mod, not calculated to provide balanced traction, then the whole issue of drag or spoilers vs wings is irrelevant.
Either way, great work on the nascar spoiler. It looks boss as hell.
OP
OP
hotmustang95
Active Member
Because I still occasionally drive on the streets I wanted something functional and still "acceptable" for street use. Although, looking at my current spoiler one could argue that I have long passed the "acceptable" rear spoiler area and ventured well into the big focking wing arena lol. To be honest most of the visual mods I've done to the car were to give it a racer look but in the process I made sure to research the mods and at least make them functional and strong to withstand track abuse. For me the idea of using a functional wing on my car was too much. I would've felt childish and embarrassed rolling around town with this huge wing on the back but like I said before I'm pretty much in that zone with what I built. So for me it comes down to looks. I've always envisioned that type of wing/spoiler on the rear of my car and the Shinoda wing I had on there was close enough for all those years. I completely agree about the negative effects of drag caused by this type of spoiler vs the positive effects of downforce. A real wing would've been a much better choice if I was going all out. If I were actually competing with my car it would have nothing done to the body. A few of guys I know who compete in NASA's American Iron series have not touched the bodies of their cars. All the attention is focused on the driver mod. Because this car is still my toy and I do on an average of 4 events a year it gives me the freedom mod it in ways that would otherwise cost me major points in the real racing world.
I think you misunderstood what I was saying and ran complete different direction. I wasn't going into any of that. I was simply stating that a spoiler will create a lot of drag, because that's how it works.
Okay - I understand things differently :/ A wing (or airfoil) is the one that creates a lot of drag. A spoiler (a la Nascar) does not create drag, but actually reduces it.
The advantage of a wing/airfoil: depending on the setup, generates TONS of downforce. This is used for faster corners. However, the more downforce, the more drag created (the give/take of wings). So top end and acceleration are lost, however the downforce generated allows one to take corners a lot faster. Thus the trade-off.
The advantage of spoilers: they encourage the air to take a different path off the trunk/rear end. Which is one of the worst flow areas on a car. On a normal sedan, the air flows off the trunk and angles towards the ground (creating lift on the rear - wings do the *opposite* of this by angling the air upwards, thus downforce). A spoiler creates a sort of dead zone between the rear window and trunk. This dead zone encourages the faster moving air (laminar) to go around it. Air takes the path of least resistance. This creates a smoother, slicker transition off the rear, letting the air leave the trunk straight back to a little upwards. Because of this, no lift is created in the rear - however not a lot of downforce is created. So the spoiler actually makes the car smoother through the air, it reduces drag.
Real word examples of the above: a F1 car with a wing. F1 cars travel on (mostly) flat tracks, so massive downforce is needed to stay at speed in the corners. At the expense of drag. Nascar, however, have those massive banked turns - these provide the downforce for the car so a massive wing is not needed. Instead, they use spoilers (both front and rear, where F1 uses wings front and rear) to make the car slicker through the air and increase acceleration and top-speed. If Nascar was ran on flat ground without the banked turns, I suspect they would be running wings rather than spoilers.
Edit: so, despite that the spoiler looks like a wall on the trunk and thus one would think creates drag, when properly setup it in fact does the opposite. Though you do not get any real downforce out of it, but really a cancellation of the lift effect on the rear of the car.
Edit edit: whether one is to run a wing or a spoiler depends on the track type. On flat tracks, people tend to use wings to benefit from the downforce. You will most likely *not* see a time attack car for normal tracks with a spoiler - they will almost always have massive wings. For the type of tracks OP runs on, I would think a smaller wing (though a bit larger than the Shinoda) would be more beneficial than the spoiler. However, OP may not be traction limited in the corners, so a wing is not needed. For a car with not a lot of power, I would think a spoiler would be more beneficial than a wing. The more power the car has, the more a wing becomes more beneficial. IMHO.
Edit edit edit: I also think this lends to the statements that the "stock" Mustang wings "don't do anything." And they right - if they are thinking it's actually a wing and is supposed to generate downforce. It's not. It actually acts more like a spoiler, despite the "wing" shape. The air won't travel under the wing, so it's really a spoiler. Which is good for a stock car (less drag, better MPG, etc.). If people are expecting downforce from the stock wing, they are expecting something it wasn't really designed to do. And obviously it won't generate any downforce as it's not really a true wing.
Edit edit edit edit: I decided to create a new thread on this rather than polluting OP's build thread. It's here. Sorry OP!
If a spoiler was just sort of hung out there, then you would be right. It's a wall. However, because of its location/proximity to the rear window, it changes the fluid dynamics of the air.
I I think I recall seeing a really good page on this with fluid dynamics drawings and such. It was very good. I'll see if I can find it and post it here.
DavidBoren
Active Member
Hotmustang95, we have a in depth discussion about aerodynamics elsewhere, you can delete/clean up a lot of these replies that don't pertain directly to your car.
PS. Thank you for having the b@lls to build that and put it on your car. I love it. Also, your pioneering efforts have sparked a really good discussion on aerodynamics, so thank you for that, too.
PS. Thank you for having the b@lls to build that and put it on your car. I love it. Also, your pioneering efforts have sparked a really good discussion on aerodynamics, so thank you for that, too.
OP
OP
hotmustang95
Active Member
Please no apology is needed. I found your reply very interesting and welcome it. I could care less that's it's in this thread. The whole reason for putting crap on the the site is to spark conversation and opinions. To be honest, I too thought that my spoiler would create more drag then a wing because that's mostly what I've read on the net but after reading what you posted it makes sense. Even though I believed my spoiler created drag I did always wonder how much could it really be creating being that the cabin is directly in front of it. I figured the sides of the spoiler would be the areas that really got any of the clean air and so is the reason I placed the supports at the ends.
OP
OP
hotmustang95
Active Member
Thank you very much. I do enjoy building it and then testing it at the track.
OP
OP
hotmustang95
Active Member
Thank you sir. I'm not afraid to try things out. It is after all just a car and if something doesn't work out it can be fixed or changed.
DavidBoren
Active Member
Hey mister March ROTM big-shot, how's that racecar of yours coming along? Anything cool or exciting?
ElrodKTPQ_89
Legend
Scrolling thru pics on google last night and saw this...
I actually saw a few cars with a similar wing.
I actually saw a few cars with a similar wing.
OP
OP
hotmustang95
Active Member
Scrolling thru pics on google last night and saw this...
I actually saw a few cars with a similar wing.
That car is in the Maier Racing site. I called them to ask if they made a rear spoiler for my car when I saw this car there even though they only advertise for the 99-04. Owner told me it was actually an employees car who no longer worked there I think he said. And so they could not replicate it for me. Had they had it I would've bought that one. Since now I had to build one my original goal was to replicate that one. Problem is getting the spoiler to follow the lines of the car on a 94-98. You have to curve it and angle it at the same time. That's if you want it to follow the trunk line. Would've been much easier to just bolt it down flat across the top but I think it would've looked off. I got another idea going in my head. Think what I'll do is buy another trunk and screw around with that one off the car.
OP
OP
hotmustang95
Active Member
A few new things for this year. I decided to take some time off track to update the car with the areo stuff I just finished and new suspension. Don't have the money to do both. Adding a Moroso rear end breather and other small maintenance stuff. My next event will be the Track Guys event at Sebring at the end of May. This is where I'll test out the new spoiler and coil overs.
OP
OP
hotmustang95
Active Member
Took a page out of Ferocious build and painted the lettering on my track tires in white. Found out Sharpie does sell white pens. I've always loved the way the Continental race tires had the white lettering. They have that real race look. I'll probably try this out on my street tires and see how they look.
wmfateam
Active Member
Guh, this was my favorite build.
Hey! It turned out great
amy98gt
Member
I have never been truly happy with the wing options for our cars. Love your new wing. The tint realy makes it. I love your thought process and the way you combine the race it but make it look sexy style. Keep up the good work.
