Bottom end is toast - Need Guidance

[Thomas_W]

+1 with those guys. There is no way you can build a forged rotating assembly And install it for $2500.

Throw a PI 2v motor from a panther car in there, drop the boost and get a tune. That should be $1500 or less.

 

[Freefallin]

Panther car?will all of the electrical and what not swap over? Will it cause and issues with the tune currently on the car? Will my oil pan swap right over (blower lol fitting already tapped to mine)?

 

[Royal96]

Panther car?will all of the electrical and what not swap over? Will it cause and issues with the tune currently on the car? Will my oil pan swap right over (blower lol fitting already tapped to mine)?

They are the same exact motors as the mustang, just easier to find and often cheaper.

 

[ScottyDsntKnow]

Panther= Crown Vic/Grand Marquis/Lincoln Towncar. They all are the Panther platform. There is nothing to swap, the block, heads, intake and cams are identical. You just break the Panther engine down to that and then swap the front cover, electrical, fuel etc... to the new engine. Its a 100% direct swap and will fire up like you never changed anything if you left the same tune on it. But I would load a safe startup tune from a good tuner first before even touching the ignition and then let them set it to a safe level.

 

[ScottyDsntKnow]

Ok here we go... not sure how far you are willing to drive but the best deal I found within a reasonable distance where you could go get it and back in an afternoon is:

2004 Crown Vic - 45k miles $500. Binford Auto Wrecking in Kent, WA. 1-253-854-8000 135 Miles from your zip code

2005 Grand Marquis - 56k miles $700. Gundies Auto Recycling in Seattle, WA. 1-800-444-4344 109 Miles from your zip code

2005 Towncar - 60k miles $700. Gundies Auto Recycling in Portland, OR. Same phone number 25 miles from you at their OR location.


http://www.car-part.com/cgi-bin/sea...043812&userUID=0&userBroker=&userPage=1&iKey=

There is the search results on Car-Par that I used if you wanted to call about any others. Remember, you want an 04-up unless its a screaming good deal.

Seems the deals are similar near you. That 42k mile one for $500 is priced GREAT but its probably a few hours to get to. I just drove 2 hours each way to pick up a Cobra motor that I basically stole tho so its not a huge deal. Just make damn sure when you go you have a pallet to put it on and a real stout cargo strap to hold it down to the pallet/bed of your truck.

 

[Freefallin]

Ok here we go... not sure how far you are willing to drive but the best deal I found within a reasonable distance where you could go get it and back in an afternoon is:

2004 Crown Vic - 45k miles $500. Binford Auto Wrecking in Kent, WA. 1-253-854-8000 135 Miles from your zip code

2005 Grand Marquis - 56k miles $700. Gundies Auto Recycling in Seattle, WA. 1-800-444-4344 109 Miles from your zip code

2005 Towncar - 60k miles $700. Gundies Auto Recycling in Portland, OR. Same phone number 25 miles from you at their OR location.


http://www.car-part.com/cgi-bin/sea...043812&userUID=0&userBroker=&userPage=1&iKey=

There is the search results on Car-Par that I used if you wanted to call about any others. Remember, you want an 04-up unless its a screaming good deal.

Seems the deals are similar near you. That 42k mile one for $500 is priced GREAT but its probably a few hours to get to. I just drove 2 hours each way to pick up a Cobra motor that I basically stole tho so its not a huge deal. Just make damn sure when you go you have a pallet to put it on and a real stout cargo strap to hold it down to the pallet/bed of your truck.

Scotty, you should quit your job and find used car parts for a living. Nice work my friend. And great suggestion about the Panther motors, I will have to keep looking into those. I have a super heavy duty pallet and a come long tie down I can bring if I end up gong this route.

The guy is now saying that his girlfriend who was supposed to send out the money via check has moved out and wont get back to him. He said he cant tell by looking at his account if she sent anything but he said to check the mail today or tomorrow. I can almost guarantee there will be no checks. I finally told him I've been patient enough and kind of called him out so we will see what happens if there isn't anything in the mail. The saga continues...

Fought with the darn PS pump last night. Those bolts were on super tight! Had to get very creative to get that 10mm off under the PS line. Ended up having to use a jack handle to slip over the 10mm ratcheting wrench to break it loose. Now just gotta remove shifter and linkage, main engine ground cable and I guess the driveshaft and trans crossemember right?

Sean

 

[Freefallin]

Just called on the 05 Towncar w/60k @ Gundies in Portland. Said it's a $100 core fee, so I would be looking at $799 out the door. The add says it's 205 compression which sounds like it's in great shape. Not questioning your guys' knowledge, but just be be certain, everything is bolt and go yes?

Sean

 

[ScottyDsntKnow]

Core fee wtf? I've never ever paid a core fee for a JY pullout. I mean if you are good with that price then go for it but I dunno... Maybe call the other place. Or whatevs, if its close to you that's very convenient.

Yes it is 100% bolt on and go. Break it down to the block, heads, valve covers and intake manifold. Swap your front cover and all front accessories, your plenum and air intake setup and any Mustang specific parts and drop it right back in. Basically just put them on engine stands next to each other and just start moving parts over and make the Panther engine into a Mustang one. That simple.

 

[Freefallin]

Core fee wtf? I've never ever paid a core fee for a JY pullout. I mean if you are good with that price then go for it but I dunno... Maybe call the other place. Or whatevs, if its close to you that's very convenient.

Yes it is 100% bolt on and go. Break it down to the block, heads, valve covers and intake manifold. Swap your front cover and all front accessories, your plenum and air intake setup and any Mustang specific parts and drop it right back in. Basically just put them on engine stands next to each other and just start moving parts over and make the Panther engine into a Mustang one. That simple.

I was thinking the same thing regarding the core fee. I borrowed a buddies cherry picker and another buddies engine stand. Can I do this with just 1 engine stand?

Something else I have been thinking about is the current engine does not have any of the emissions stuff on it like IAC and something else I can't remember the name of. My question is this: will the current tune be affected after the emissions stuff is back on with the new motor?

This whole tuning thing has confused. IDK why the guy took off the IAC and other stuff. I have a feeling part of the reason the car isn't running right to begin with is due to the lack of the emissions stuff...

Sean

 

[lwarrior1016]

You dont have an Idle Air Control valve?

 

[Freefallin]

You dont have an Idle Air Control valve?

Nope, the prior owner had the shop remove it for whatever reason. They wired in some kind or resistor in it's place. I called the shop this morning and he said it was to kind of "trick" the car into thinking it has one. Can I get another stock one and run it? You think this is why the car has a hard time starting and staying started?

Sean

 

[96blak54]

This thread keeps getting better! Scottydsntknow has covered some good tech!

Dude, can you snap a few pics of the engine bay? Some pics of what you're talking about...

Also adding to what scottydsntknow about swapping out engine coverings. There are a few places where rtv is needed. Missing these spots will guarantee a leak or vacuum seal. Lets be real careful when you reassemble.

 

[ScottyDsntKnow]

Is this the same shop that told you that it just needed a tune?

 

[lwarrior1016]

Wow. Definitely get some picks like 96blak54 said. We need to get you sorted out.

 

[ScottyDsntKnow]

Scotty, you should quit your job and find used car parts for a living. Nice work my friend. And great suggestion about the Panther motors, I will have to keep looking into those. I have a super heavy duty pallet and a come long tie down I can bring if I end up gong this route.

The guy is now saying that his girlfriend who was supposed to send out the money via check has moved out and wont get back to him. He said he cant tell by looking at his account if she sent anything but he said to check the mail today or tomorrow. I can almost guarantee there will be no checks. I finally told him I've been patient enough and kind of called him out so we will see what happens if there isn't anything in the mail. The saga continues...

Fought with the darn PS pump last night. Those bolts were on super tight! Had to get very creative to get that 10mm off under the PS line. Ended up having to use a jack handle to slip over the 10mm ratcheting wrench to break it loose. Now just gotta remove shifter and linkage, main engine ground cable and I guess the driveshaft and trans crossemember right?

Sean

I'd have told him not to treat me like I'm an idiot. He's obviously full of shit. If you want to pursue legal action, go for it. If not... if you found this deal on a forum or somewhere you can leave feedback then load up the negative feedback. Also leave negative feedback on every website you can for that shop. Since you are within driving distance... I dunno. Not going to recommend any specific course of action.

 

[Freefallin]

Some pretty big updates here guys.

Dude finally calls me last night and basically said she was moved out when he got back from his work trip and won't answer his calls. He then proceeded to tell me he's broke and doesn't have any money until he gets paid in 2 weeks. He said there is still a chance a check might come today but I am 100% not holding my breath. For what it's worth, I think he is being honest when he says he;s going to send me money. I really do think he's had a rough week and needs some time which I suppose I have to give him. I told him I wanted to get the money via Venmo if the check doesn't show. He also said he will try to figure something out before the 2 weeks for me so who knows.

Enough with that rant, moving onto the fun stuff now. Got a lot done on the car after work yesterday.

-Removed driveshaft (that was a fun challenge, thank you Mr. Jack handle)
-Removed dust cover and shift linkage
-Removed motor mount bolts (that was challenging and fun, got to play with a ton of different extensions and ideas)
-Removed a couple of electrical connectors
-Removed fan
-Removed shifter

Only think left to do I believe is remove the cross member, hook up the cherry picker with load leveler and start to yard this thing. Have some questions regarding this step.

-Should I support the trans while removing the trans cross member?

-Can the car stay up on all 4 jack stands (front stands are on frame rails, rear on rear axle) or should I drop it down for removal?
-Where should I place the chains for the picker? A mechanic buddy of mine says to remove one of the upper bell housing bolts but I noticed a bolt holding a bracket for the main engine coolant line to the back of the block just above the bell housing that looks suitable, can I use this bolt instead?

-Should trans stay supported w/floor jack while removing engine?

-Any specific notes regarding removing motor and trans together?

This is such a wonderful learning experience for me no matter the outcome of getting the money or not. Just really going off of those 2 videos I linked and some Q&A from you guys and my mechanic buddy. I've done a lot of little stuff like suspension installs, pulley swaps, T-Stats, headlights and the other basic maintenance and what not but never something to this extent. It is really teaching me patience and organization and now I know where everything goes on the car and what it does. It's seriously reassuring knowing how my car is put together.

You guys have been extremely helpful and I know will be more helpful in regards to which route I ultimately end up going with the engine. Lot's of options and luckily lots of time. Now I wish my patience were as long!

Still thinking about that 03/04 Cobra forged shortblock for sale in CA. Guy finally got back to me and says the pistons are -18cc dish SpeedPro Forged from MMR but I am still not sure on CR with my blower and head/cam setup....I think I could get it for $1800 shipped which should be a pretty good deal but not sure I want to hassle with the 8 bolt fly wheel and other stuff that may have to be changed.

Sean

 

[lwarrior1016]

Honestly, I wouldnt worry about the cobra shortblock. You wont need the crank that is in there and thatll be a good chunk of the money. As far as pulling the engine and trans, remove your intake manifold and hook the rear to the top transmission bolts, the hook to the front where the alternator was. (Im pretty sure thats the same thing 96blak54 said). After you have that hooked up, support the trans with a jack and remove the cross member. Then you can lower the jack and adjust your leveler so that it is supporting all of the weight of the engine and trans.


I always pull my stuff separately and when I do that I bolt the chains to the heads where the intake bolts down. I wouldnt trust it that way for the engine/trans combo, though.

 

[Freefallin]

Honestly, I wouldnt worry about the cobra shortblock. You wont need the crank that is in there and thatll be a good chunk of the money. As far as pulling the engine and trans, remove your intake manifold and hook the rear to the top transmission bolts, the hook to the front where the alternator was. (Im pretty sure thats the same thing 96blak54 said). After you have that hooked up, support the trans with a jack and remove the cross member. Then you can lower the jack and adjust your leveler so that it is supporting all of the weight of the engine and trans.

I always pull my stuff separately and when I do that I bolt the chains to the heads where the intake bolts down. I wouldnt trust it that way for the engine/trans combo, though.

Copy. So removing 1 or 2 (1 or 2 is best?) of the bell housing bolts and then the 2 holes on the front of the block where the alternator was should be good? Also, I know someone mentioned to use my intake manifold bolts for the front of the alternator (they fit perfectly), but my mechanic buddy was saying they could bend. They seem like they are really nice quality bolts but are the Allen key variety.

I like the idea of the Cobra shortblock because it's forged, but in the same token, I believe I could be into my own forged rotating assembly for roughly the same cost. Good call, think will use my own shortblock and have a machinist my buddy used to build his LS stroker build me a forged rotating assembly (minus crank) if I end up going this route.

The used motor route is still a very viable option and where I am currently leaning. I think I want to go with a blow-thru MAF setup with CX Racing 3-core front mount and BOV. With the IC and Meth injection, I hardly doubt an all stock bottom end would blow up, especially since I could drop the pulley size to net out somewhere in the 8-10 PSI range. Anyone know what pulley size I should grab in order to accomplish those boost numbers with IC and my current top end setup? I still cant get a clear answer on this topic. The way I understand it, I would need a pulley good for 10 PSI but the IC would drop another 1 or 2 PSI. Is this the correct way to think about this?

Sean

 

[lwarrior1016]

Copy. So removing 1 or 2 (1 or 2 is best?) of the bell housing bolts and then the 2 holes on the front of the block where the alternator was should be good? Also, I know someone mentioned to use my intake manifold bolts for the front of the alternator (they fit perfectly), but my mechanic buddy was saying they could bend. They seem like they are really nice quality bolts but are the Allen key variety.

I like the idea of the Cobra shortblock because it's forged, but in the same token, I believe I could be into my own forged rotating assembly for roughly the same cost. Good call, think will use my own shortblock and have a machinist my buddy used to build his LS stroker build me a forged rotating assembly (minus crank) if I end up going this route.

The used motor route is still a very viable option and where I am currently leaning. I think I want to go with a blow-thru MAF setup with CX Racing 3-core front mount and BOV. With the IC and Meth injection, I hardly doubt an all stock bottom end would blow up, especially since I could drop the pulley size to net out somewhere in the 8-10 PSI range. Anyone know what pulley size I should grab in order to accomplish those boost numbers with IC and my current top end setup? I still cant get a clear answer on this topic. The way I understand it, I would need a pulley good for 10 PSI but the IC would drop another 1 or 2 PSI. Is this the correct way to think about this?

Sean

If you are using a load leveler with the 4 attachment points, then youll use the top 2 trans bolts on the rear and the two alternator holes. When you bolt your chains down, make sure the bolts are all tight and they will be hard pressed to bend. If you bolt them tight, you will be ok. When the threads are tight and locked in with each other is when the bolt is the strongest. That being said, the used engine option will be a pretty decent route to go, but I like building so I would rather piece one together. Use a stock cast crank, boss 302 rods (I will put up a link for them at the bottom), and your choice of pistons. I got my forged pistons for under $300. Your choice of bearings, then your bolts. The bolts are what will cost you.

For anyone interested, this is the link to the 2013 Boss connecting rods.
http://parts.autonationfordwhitebea...ine-cat/engine-scat/?part_name=connecting-rod

 

[Freefallin]

If you are using a load leveler with the 4 attachment points, then youll use the top 2 trans bolts on the rear and the two alternator holes. When you bolt your chains down, make sure the bolts are all tight and they will be hard pressed to bend. If you bolt them tight, you will be ok. When the threads are tight and locked in with each other is when the bolt is the strongest. That being said, the used engine option will be a pretty decent route to go, but I like building so I would rather piece one together. Use a stock cast crank, boss 302 rods (I will put up a link for them at the bottom), and your choice of pistons. I got my forged pistons for under $300. Your choice of bearings, then your bolts. The bolts are what will cost you.

For anyone interested, this is the link to the 2013 Boss connecting rods.
http://parts.autonationfordwhitebea...ine-cat/engine-scat/?part_name=connecting-rod

Perfect, that's exactly what I needed. And thanks for the link, I already have those hyperlinked in my Excel spreadsheet for my shortblock build if I go that route. I was going to run Manley Street Master pistons with those rods and then ARP hardware and King or Clevite bearings.

Here comes some serious ignorance/lack of engine knowledge so please forgive the amateur questions. This is all in reference to building my own block...

-I know there are 2 things regarding "hardware" I would need to purchase; ARP main studs and head studs? What do "main studs" refer to? Can someone link the exact kit I would need?

-I know I also need main bearings and rod bearings. Having trouble figuring out which "kit" or part numbers to get. Link would be sweet.

-I am sure I need gaskets, header bolts, etc. right? Is there a "master gasket kit" I could get, or just piece something together?

-What other misc. items should I be putting on my parts list so I can get an accurate idea or EVERYTHING I would nee for a shortblock build?

Sean